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detroit diver
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Lessons to be learned-Death in Palau
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Once we get government in this, we will have an expensive sport turn into a prohibitively expensive sport. We will be wearing helmets and knee pads and who knows what else. It is up to the individual diver to determine whether they are fit for any particular dive. Sure, it is the responsibility of the dive operation to make fitness criteria known before the dive so that the divers can make a GOOD judgement, but your life is in your hands... no one else's!
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Actually, I never mentioned "Govenrment".
Just like you (usually) can't buy a tank of air without a C card, it would ne nice if dive operators would refuse to take divers to locations that were way beyond their limits.
I think it's also the dive operator's responsibility to make sure that the diver is at least moderatly qualified for the dive. Would you want to go cave diving with a buddy who has only done quiet shallow reefs during the day? Would you like to find this out once you're already at the location?
Would you want to do a wreck at 120' with the above buddy?
Wouldn't it be nice if the dive operator did some screening beforehand?
Just like you (usually) can't buy a tank of air without a C card, it would ne nice if dive operators would refuse to take divers to locations that were way beyond their limits.
I think it's also the dive operator's responsibility to make sure that the diver is at least moderatly qualified for the dive. Would you want to go cave diving with a buddy who has only done quiet shallow reefs during the day? Would you like to find this out once you're already at the location?
Would you want to do a wreck at 120' with the above buddy?
Wouldn't it be nice if the dive operator did some screening beforehand?
in the status quo. That's how it already is... there is "supposed" to be an informal screening of divers. I know it is being done somewhere, I just have never had it happen to me. To whit... I have been diving NitrOx for years... the shop where I got my cert called that they FINALLY found my card. That's right, I have got a zillion fills without the benefit of a card. The only times I have ever had to present my c-card was for one dive operator in the Keys (way to go Divers City) and Florida parks.
Since we are "self policing" there will always be huge discrepencies in how it's done. Ultimately it is up to the DIVER to be sure that they are fit to dive. I can't look inside their brain and see the anxieties or the discipline or the knowledge... they have to make that decision. Diver: know thyself!
As for buddies... well now I do excercise a ton of discretion. Though being an instructor, I get to dive with a bunch of newbies and wannabies as well. Many times I am paired with the weakest diver, and I do MY LEVEL BEST to determine their fitness for that dive. Is it my "job"? Not normally (if I am instructing, then it is). In fact it is a blessing when I don't have a buddy or I have a good buddy. You see, I teach all of my students that the ONLY person in charge of their diving is THEM. They are responsible for choosing the right conditions (rule #2- you can call a dive for any reason whatsoever-no questions asked!), the right buddy (see rule #2), have the right equipment, and the knowhow (Rule #3- don't dive outside of your training). No one else is as responsible as you for your life.
BTW... my rule #1 is -Don't stop breathing! We call it the "blonde rule"!
Since we are "self policing" there will always be huge discrepencies in how it's done. Ultimately it is up to the DIVER to be sure that they are fit to dive. I can't look inside their brain and see the anxieties or the discipline or the knowledge... they have to make that decision. Diver: know thyself!
As for buddies... well now I do excercise a ton of discretion. Though being an instructor, I get to dive with a bunch of newbies and wannabies as well. Many times I am paired with the weakest diver, and I do MY LEVEL BEST to determine their fitness for that dive. Is it my "job"? Not normally (if I am instructing, then it is). In fact it is a blessing when I don't have a buddy or I have a good buddy. You see, I teach all of my students that the ONLY person in charge of their diving is THEM. They are responsible for choosing the right conditions (rule #2- you can call a dive for any reason whatsoever-no questions asked!), the right buddy (see rule #2), have the right equipment, and the knowhow (Rule #3- don't dive outside of your training). No one else is as responsible as you for your life.
BTW... my rule #1 is -Don't stop breathing! We call it the "blonde rule"!
I believe there are many divers diving beyond their limits every day. However I see a problem with some one else being responsible for telling them what dive is appropriate and what isn't. Then is becomes their resposibility to be right and like NetDoc you just can't know for sure.
ONTOH, I believe that's just what often happend. The DM says "just follow me it'll be ok". They say "those with comuters tell me when your NDL gets short but those without them just stay above me". I think there are a lot of trust me dives going on in fact I would say that's what most vecation divers are doing on most dives.
We don't teach deep diving in detail in an entry level course. Yet divers are htting 100 ft on their first time out. I try to give students an idea of what they have yet to learn but 10 minutes after they get on the boat some DM is contradicting everything I tried to teach. Of course they have the examples of all the other followers to follow which doesn't help.
Most of the time it works out ok (though it's often close) but sometimes it doesn't. When it doesn't I doubt the poor diver ever even understands what went wrong.
Sort of pisses me off if you couldn't tell.
ONTOH, I believe that's just what often happend. The DM says "just follow me it'll be ok". They say "those with comuters tell me when your NDL gets short but those without them just stay above me". I think there are a lot of trust me dives going on in fact I would say that's what most vecation divers are doing on most dives.
We don't teach deep diving in detail in an entry level course. Yet divers are htting 100 ft on their first time out. I try to give students an idea of what they have yet to learn but 10 minutes after they get on the boat some DM is contradicting everything I tried to teach. Of course they have the examples of all the other followers to follow which doesn't help.
Most of the time it works out ok (though it's often close) but sometimes it doesn't. When it doesn't I doubt the poor diver ever even understands what went wrong.
Sort of pisses me off if you couldn't tell.
inter_alia
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Mike,
I think you're right that "trust me" dives (I use your term) are happening all the time with very inexperienced divers -- like hitting 100' on one of their first times out. I was certified through SSI OW a couple months ago and went with the dive shop to Bonaire, where I did my check out dive. After five days diving with a group of experienced divers (including my father, a very conservative, experienced and well-trained diver) I realized on the way home that I had never looked at my dive tables, etc. Never. We went to the Hilma Hooker twice and I would have had to use 100' on the tables which would have limited severely the amount of bottom time I could have had on any subsequent dive.
Training was kind of sporadic, but it was thorough "enough." The things instructors tend to forget to tell us in our pool sessions are the tiny things that can freak out a new diver -- even something so simple like, yes, you can cough with a reg in your mouth. That sounds so silly to me now, but I remember clearly being in 10' of chlorine and nearly choking myself supressing a cough. If I hadn't learned that day that it was a "silly" problem, I might have had to cough for the first time on dive #14, at the Hilma Hooker's steering wheel around 90' goofing around with my first narcosis.
Ever since Bonaire, I have been nearly annoying to others on boats -- particularly my father, who is usually around-- asking questions that the very experienced divers haven't thought about in ages. They are usually generous with information but they just simply never considered a or b or c to be concerns.
I think diving is a solo event, no matter how many people are down there with you and in how close a proximity. This would make training very difficult to standardize unless we all had private instructors in differing conditions for months on end. I'm lucky insofar as I do have experienced people around me and I'm not embarrassed to ask the little things.
Just my three cents.
I think you're right that "trust me" dives (I use your term) are happening all the time with very inexperienced divers -- like hitting 100' on one of their first times out. I was certified through SSI OW a couple months ago and went with the dive shop to Bonaire, where I did my check out dive. After five days diving with a group of experienced divers (including my father, a very conservative, experienced and well-trained diver) I realized on the way home that I had never looked at my dive tables, etc. Never. We went to the Hilma Hooker twice and I would have had to use 100' on the tables which would have limited severely the amount of bottom time I could have had on any subsequent dive.
Training was kind of sporadic, but it was thorough "enough." The things instructors tend to forget to tell us in our pool sessions are the tiny things that can freak out a new diver -- even something so simple like, yes, you can cough with a reg in your mouth. That sounds so silly to me now, but I remember clearly being in 10' of chlorine and nearly choking myself supressing a cough. If I hadn't learned that day that it was a "silly" problem, I might have had to cough for the first time on dive #14, at the Hilma Hooker's steering wheel around 90' goofing around with my first narcosis.
Ever since Bonaire, I have been nearly annoying to others on boats -- particularly my father, who is usually around-- asking questions that the very experienced divers haven't thought about in ages. They are usually generous with information but they just simply never considered a or b or c to be concerns.
I think diving is a solo event, no matter how many people are down there with you and in how close a proximity. This would make training very difficult to standardize unless we all had private instructors in differing conditions for months on end. I'm lucky insofar as I do have experienced people around me and I'm not embarrassed to ask the little things.
Just my three cents.
Braunbehrens
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This is true until you find decent buddies. AFAIK there is only one agency out there that trains buddies to be real buddies. The test is that at ANY time you could be OOA. Pick the worst time during the dive, would your buddy be able to help you or not?
We practice OOA all the time, but you are right, most people NEVER practice it, so how could they be of any help to you. They're probably off somewhere not paying attention to you anyway.
erichK
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I disagree completely. If safety, rather than selling as many extra courses as possible, were the main concern of diving "education" organizations and dive shops and their instructions weren't as bent on selling as much equipment as possible, and ESPECIALLY IF OPERATIONS LIKE PETER HUGHES THAT HAVE BEEN ASSOCIATED WITH SO MANY FATALITIES WERE MADE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR "MISTAKES" then fatalities like this would be rarer.
I initially got into diving in the late sixties, through the YMCA. The course was truly arduous, required a high level of fitness, and took months to complete. I then recertified with ACUC as "the Association of Canadian Underwater Councils".
That course was considerably less strenuous, but still seemed to require more time and effort than a friend's PADI course. Then my wife daughter and I took another cetrification course last year with a club and instructors acting for the ACUC as the American Canadian Underwater certifiers. The course seemed intensive in parts (too much and strenuously so in things like exits and entries with full gear...far too little in areas like proper weighting and buoyancy control), but took more class and pool time than the PADI course to complete.
And situations like drift dives in areas of high current were only briefly covered, in lecture style, with none of the video and little of the references to personal experiences that might make them "stick". There were some drills breathing from regulators without a mask and doffing and donning equipment at the bottom of the pool...but nothing like the repetition and emphasis on such skills that I remember from my firt or even my second course.
What orgaization trained this poor woman? How much training had she had in these areas? And how can one possibly justify any divemaster exposing such a new diver to such a situation? Peter Hughes cruises are hardlly inexpensive. Isn't knowledge of dive sites, experience and judgement one of the things we pay for when we plunk down our hard-earned cash? Had this woman ever used a reef hook before? What training was there in the use and release of these devices?
Safety should always be put before marketting and profit. I'm sure that one reason so many new divers give up the sport is because they don't really feel safe and comfortable diving, although they are --holy cow, isnt it!---certified. (To do what? Dive in a pool? go down forty or fifty feet in a quarry or quiet bay?).
It is always easiest to blame a victim who can no longer defend o explain their actions, but the responsibility for this tragedy may lie in several places. Some of it belongs to whoever trained and certified her, and considerably more with whatever lunatic exposed such a new diver to such a situation.
Maybe this post does not belong in this forum, but I believe it fits this thread very well.
Would diving be better served without such iron clad releases? People sign away their right to sue for even INTENTIONAL ACTS and GROSS NEGLIGENCE on the part of their instructors & guides. As instructors we are all meant to abide by our organization's standards, but in the end, legally, we are absolved for 99.9% of any of our actions.
Do you think instructors and guides would try much harder if they knew they would ultimately be held accountable for thier stupid actions? (Maybe we could hold people accountable by a RESAONABLE GUIDE/INSTRUCTOR standard)?
With regard to a customer's (student's) Right to Know - - Should there be a central repository of information that would detail the complaints and accidents caused by Guides/Instructors/Companies? This would at least give the customer the ability to vote with their wallet and choose another instructor/shop. It is not too far off the mark to ask PHD to put a stick figure on the side of the boats for every customer they harmed. Maybe people would pay attention and look for quality elsewhere.
Would diving be better served without such iron clad releases? People sign away their right to sue for even INTENTIONAL ACTS and GROSS NEGLIGENCE on the part of their instructors & guides. As instructors we are all meant to abide by our organization's standards, but in the end, legally, we are absolved for 99.9% of any of our actions.
Do you think instructors and guides would try much harder if they knew they would ultimately be held accountable for thier stupid actions? (Maybe we could hold people accountable by a RESAONABLE GUIDE/INSTRUCTOR standard)?
With regard to a customer's (student's) Right to Know - - Should there be a central repository of information that would detail the complaints and accidents caused by Guides/Instructors/Companies? This would at least give the customer the ability to vote with their wallet and choose another instructor/shop. It is not too far off the mark to ask PHD to put a stick figure on the side of the boats for every customer they harmed. Maybe people would pay attention and look for quality elsewhere.
I am not a lawyer, and cannot comment on international law at all (which would apply here). But I have some experience in the safety field within the United States, and here a person simply cannot sign away their right to sue. Those releases are only worth something as a deterrent to having someone file a suit in the first place, and not worth much once someone gets into court. Maybe someone who has law experience, especially for international law, could also comment on this.
SeaRat
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