Legality Question

[Walter]

to generalize that anyone who is not an instructor can not do it safely is is unrealistic.

No arguments there. There are quite a few very experienced divers who've never been instructors with whom I'd much rather trust a beginner than I would with the vast majority of instructors. OTOH, the concept that any diver can safely handle this situation is insane. I don't think most instructors are really qualified to teach diving, opening it up to any diver would be even worse.

 

[DiveBZ]

If driving a car is so easy, why are you so reluctant to toss a beginner your keys?
And so eager to toss a beginner your reg if diving is so much more complicated?

Ok, if you want to get REAL down dirty about it -

Car = 27,000$. Racing Clutch in Car = 1700$.

New Driver + Expensive Racing Clutch = New Clutch / Possibly New Car if they suck REAL BAD.

Scuba Gear = 1500$. Sick Diver does not raise my insurance rates, or drain my 401k, unless it was my child.

Now, that being said - obviously, if it were my kid, money is no object. Of course their life is more valuable than any amount of money.

But my son will never drive my Supra. It's been modded to the freaking max, and it's really too fast for even ME to drive. Putting a new driver in a sports car is basically signing their death certificate. I've worked enough wrecks to know this, it's not really a point of contention.

He will get a 2000$ piece of crap that tops out at 80 mph. Why? To keep him safe.

A diver can get hurt with used gear just as easily as with brand new aqualung gear.

If you want to get really non-technical about it -

My instructor for OW tossed me a reg as a beginner after snorkeling for and floating for a total of 20 minutes. I never saw him again because others in my class were having problems. How is that different? I still learned all the skills because I was interested in LEARNING HOW TO DIVE PROPERLY. I still do the tables and plan my dives by the tables even though I have a computer because I learned to dive properly.

If you read my original post I said it was FEASIBLE for an OW graduate to teach someone else. I never once stated I would do it or condone it, for liability reasons. I'm sure I COULD teach my son how to dive and he would have no problems doing so for the rest of his life. But I won't.

If I was going to for some strange reason, I would give him what he needs to use underwater, and enough training to keep him safe. If for some reason I was forced to teach him, you think we'd be diving to 130'?

Same analogy as the Supra.

Also, unlike SCUBA, driving is pretty intuitive, and after the age of 8 or 9, your children watch you drive and learn from your habits anyways. By the time they hit driving age, they should understand the basic rules of the road.

My only point was - driving is ingrained and intuitive, SCUBA is not.

I was saying that the two cannot be used as examples to prove one another's case.


AGAIN - Disclaimer - I will not teach anyone to dive as an OW (newbie) diver. I'm simply stating that the basic principles which keep you safe COULD FEASIBLY be taught by an OW graduate.

 

[aaron9876]

He shot a grass hopper with a laser sighted BB gun at like the age of 3.

Wow, a 3-year-old is learning that it is OK to kill for the joy of killing. No wonder the world's in the state its in

 

[Thalassamania]

I think Walter and Captain are both right on the money ... because it depends. Would I trust most certified diving instructors to teach my loved ones how to dive? Absolutely not. Would I trust some divers who are not certified diving instructors to teach my loved ones how to dive? Depending on the watermanship of the loved one, Yes.

I leaned to dive at an early age. I was taught by my Dad, a non-diver, who was learning at the same time. We were both very strong ocean swimmers and freedivers and we moved step by step through the book from front to back. When we were done with the book, and the pool, and moved to our first ocean dive we were considerably more capable than the divers being trained in most courses today. So if it was possible back then, it is still possible now. Would I recommend this route for everyone? No. Would I recommend this route for most people? No. But is it possible and even reasonable in some cases? Clearly yes.

 

[Oxy]

Ok, if you want to get REAL down dirty about it -

Car = 27,000$. Racing Clutch in Car = 1700$.

New Driver + Expensive Racing Clutch = New Clutch / Possibly New Car if they suck REAL BAD.

Scuba Gear = 1500$. Sick Diver does not raise my insurance rates, or drain my 401k, unless it was my child.

Now, that being said - obviously, if it were my kid, money is no object. Of course their life is more valuable than any amount of money.

But my son will never drive my Supra. It's been modded to the freaking max, and it's really too fast for even ME to drive. Putting a new driver in a sports car is basically signing their death certificate. I've worked enough wrecks to know this, it's not really a point of contention.

He will get a 2000$ piece of crap that tops out at 80 mph. Why? To keep him safe.

A diver can get hurt with used gear just as easily as with brand new aqualung gear.

If you want to get really non-technical about it -

My instructor for OW tossed me a reg as a beginner after snorkeling for and floating for a total of 20 minutes. I never saw him again because others in my class were having problems. How is that different? I still learned all the skills because I was interested in LEARNING HOW TO DIVE PROPERLY. I still do the tables and plan my dives by the tables even though I have a computer because I learned to dive properly.

If you read my original post I said it was FEASIBLE for an OW graduate to teach someone else. I never once stated I would do it or condone it, for liability reasons. I'm sure I COULD teach my son how to dive and he would have no problems doing so for the rest of his life. But I won't.

If I was going to for some strange reason, I would give him what he needs to use underwater, and enough training to keep him safe. If for some reason I was forced to teach him, you think we'd be diving to 130'?

Same analogy as the Supra.

Also, unlike SCUBA, driving is pretty intuitive, and after the age of 8 or 9, your children watch you drive and learn from your habits anyways. By the time they hit driving age, they should understand the basic rules of the road.

My only point was - driving is ingrained and intuitive, SCUBA is not.

I was saying that the two cannot be used as examples to prove one another's case.


AGAIN - Disclaimer - I will not teach anyone to dive as an OW (newbie) diver. I'm simply stating that the basic principles which keep you safe COULD FEASIBLY be taught by an OW graduate.

I'm sorry, I thought the OP was a legal question
I'f I had the equpt. I could feasibly teach/kill myself without anyones help/neglect.

I would prefer to know in advance, what to expect and what to do in the event of ?????? happening. You see I don't even know what can happen so if you hand me a reg and shove my head underwater, your lawyer cannot argue that I knew what I was doing.
If on the other hand you were a licensed instructor. . . . .

 

[Thalassamania]

Oh, from strictly a legal standpoint? It all depends. All the agencies have lots of material out there that talks of of both sides of their mouth. "Diving is safe" (remember that safe means without risk) vs. "Diving can can kill you." IF I were defending such a case I'd start with the first question and answer on the PADI web site under the heading, "What's to Fear":

Q: What are the most common injuries or sicknesses associated with diving?

A: Sun burn and seasickness, both of which are preventable with over the counter preventatives. The most common injuries caused by marine life are scrapes and stings, most of which can be avoided by wearing an exposure suit, staying off the bottom and watching where you put your hands and feet.

While that is technically true, it does no more towards creating informed consent (nor does the rest of the QnA).

 

[Oxy]

The longer the threads get the more convoluted the conversations get.
But there is useful information in all of it. We just need to filter out what we don't need.

I seem to word my questions poorly and read answers literally (perfectly flawed)

 

[jviehe]

To answer the OP, no there are no scuba specific laws that prohibit diving without certification. Of course, the jury may not care. You can be sued for anything. But like anything, thats the risk you take. If you are going to take responsibility for someone elses safety, you have to face the consequences.

As an instructor I view dive lessons like driving lessons. I learned to drive by reading a book and listening to my dad, then going driving. My dad wasnt a trained driving instructor. I could have taken a class, but I didnt need to. The same can go for diving. I simply provide a service that many people want, which is as more efficient, safer way to learn to dive. Some people need a professional instructor, some dont. And of course the industry has adopted training as a standard.

 

[Saltwater Junky]

On the same topic...what about discovery scuba?

On a trip to Cozumel 2 yrs ago I enrolled 2 of my girls in discovery scuba. There was 1 instructor 5 non-cert'd divers, myself and another parent (cert'd divers). The other parent and I dove with our children. The dive was and OW beach dive to a max depth of 20ft for 20min. The class time was @20n consisting of this is a mask, how to clear, this is a reg, how to breathe, don't hold breath, this is a gauge, how to read, we surface at 1000psi, this is a BCD, this is the low inflater hose, how to inflate/deflate, how to equalize. Walked to the beach and donned the gear. Once in the water we quickly reviewed everything and dove. During the dive we were spread out about 30-40 ft with the instructor in the lead.

From that experience, I felt that I could have covered that with my girls in our pool.

 

[Scared Silly]

There is already a law out there that governs this - it is called Darwinism.

What I think is funny is that people get all bent out of shape over the regulation of this and that - I take the liberal approach regulation is not needed unless there is a need that benefits the great good of the community. With one exception, I think there should be laws that say you have to have a license to procreate. Either that we need a lot bleach in the gene pool.