DIR- Generic Learning Doubles (in Wetsuit?)

[rddvet]

Disagree on learning to adjust band height. People should leave them alone where they go. Most issues I see with people being unable to reach valves are from people mucking with their band height. The rest are incorrectly adjusted harnesses. Very few are actually true mobility issues.

The rest, spot on.

I don't disagree at all. In general I find it best to leave the bands alone too. I only tossed it in there because it's something that's discussed in most doubles primers and I was never taught about when to or not to mess with bands or proper harness sizing until fundies. I thought my crappy shoulder mobility was what made my access to the valves so bad, but it was 110% improperly setup harness.

 

[The Cosmicist]

With a wetsuit, I would reccomend diving double AL80s as they are near neutral and easy to swim up in case of a BC failure. LP85s and HP100s will be substantially more negative.

The doubles primer is a great intro to diving them. Savannah is only a few hours from cave country where there are numerous instructors who more than dabble in doubles.

I passed fundies in cave country and that's where I've done "most" of my diving (not saying much). So that's the first place I'd look to take the Doubles Primer. I've already contacted two instructors there, so hopefully I will hear back soon.

It's very useful to have someone help you learn the valve drill. It's described in detail if you are a GUE member and there are youtube videos IIRC, but doing it right is important and there are a decent number of steps. Doesn't have to be a GUE instructor, but they need to be an active GUE tech diver if not. It's also helpful to have someone watching to stop you when you skip a step and try to turn off all your air doing a valve drill. And yes, you probably will do that at least once.

Yeah, that's the thing. I don't know any active GUE tech divers. I'm too far geographically removed, I guess... But from all of the responses, I'm getting the general idea that the course is worth it.

Frankly I do not understand well what you mean with "learning doubles".
There is nothing special to learn using a twin tank of proper size when doing a recreational dive in a wet suit.
The only technical difference is how to attach the BCD to the tank. But this is a not-issue if you have a backpack + wing...
Once the tank(s) are behind your shoulders, you hardly have any effect.
Of course, whenever you change the tank(s) (different capacity, alu vs steel) you need to adjust the number and position of weights. That's all.
For me, switching from my standard 15-liters steel to an Al80 is much more troublesome than switching to an 8+8 liters steel twin tank.
Generally speaking, for a given capacity, two small tanks result in a rig which is more compact, better balanced and easier to use than the single large tank.
When I started diving, students were given twin tanks, as they were considered "easier". Typically 10+10 liters steel at 150 bar (3000 liters total). They were light, almost neutral, and well balanced.
The usage of a 15 liter steel at 200 bar, as my current one, was considered more difficult, as the tank is negative buoayant, more bulky, and the two separate valves are more distant and more difficult to operate.
Conclusion: rent your twin tanks (of proper size, not too big) and go diving. You will love them...
They went out of fashion for training new divers just because they are more expensive than a crap AL80, not because they are more difficult to use

Except from this guy. ^ Sorry, I agree with @rddvet . Even I know there is a lot more to doubles than just slapping them on.

For Florida cave diving in GUE land, you’re going to want lp104s or hp130s (3442psi). 55-60lb wing. Drysuit required.

Florida wrecks, al80s with wetsuit or double hp100s. 85s are a pain because none of the south Florida shops properly fill lp steels. 40ish lb wing. Drysuit needed for the steels.

Acquire a drysuit. If you’re a stock size (or close to it), there’s always affordable suits on the used markets.

Ok, that's what I thought. During fundies I learned about (and saw) LP104s and HP130s. And I agree, there is no way I'd be able to dive those in a wetsuit.

I'll work on getting a drysuit. I'm a bit skeptical of the stock size thing. I highly doubt that will work, but we will see. I'm just now recovering from some financial setbacks, so it's a lesson in patience.

Last June I got my GUE-F rec pass on doubles and canister light with a 3mm wetsuit, if that answers your question. I used alu80s because for 104s a drysuit is highly recommended.

Also I came very close to a tec pass, so you can even get a tec pass in a wetsuit.

Alu80s as other said.

It's a GUE class so I am confident is very valuable. Though, I learned to dive with doubles for the first time during my Fundies and at least for me it worked great. Not sure if the Doubes Primer is necessary.

P/S: I don't concider myself a good diver and for sure I sucked big time before GUE-F.

Looking back on it, I think I really could have still passed with doubles by adding on the primer to Fundies. But I got into the class 4 or 5 days before it started, so there really wasn't much room for changing the schedule. Good for you for doing it!

This is 100% wrong. There are a ton of nuances to diving doubles. Let's ignore the obvious such as proper use of a long hose in an OOA situation. You need to understand how to properly size your harness, where your plate should lay on your back, how to adjust band heighths, how to adjust all of those things in order to trim out properly, and how to do valve drills effectively. The fitting of the bp/w and harness seems easy, but I've seen more people turtling, flipping feet over head, and just generally unsteady all because they're not properly fitted.
I learned to dive doubles from a mentor 15 years ago. 2 years ago I took GUE fundies. I thought I was pretty well versed in all of the things I mentioned above. On day 1, I realized I was wrong. I wish in retrospect I had taken some proper instruction on diving doubles. I hated doubles for many years and preferred sidemount, all because I had no idea my harness and doubles weren't set up properly.

I agree with you that there is much more to it than meets the eye. I am hoping to learn from your experience and start learning the right... fundamentals... (haaaaaa) early on while I'm still new to diving, so doubles (and drysuit, when I can manage it) is the next step for me. A no-brainer.

Thanks, everyone. Looks like I will schedule a Doubles Primer and, depending on what I can find regarding a drysuit, either learn on AL80s or a drysuit and steels. I finally found some other threads here that went into more detail regarding the "why" with only diving drysuits with steel doubles. It's really immediately apparent, as you all hinted at.

 

[mariosx]

Looking back on it, I think I really could have still passed with doubles by adding on the primer to Fundies. But I got into the class 4 or 5 days before it started, so there really wasn't much room for changing the schedule. Good for you for doing it!

Not trying to push back or something, but I would like to make it clear for other that might want to get fundies for the first time in doubles. It was decided to dive with doubles 2 minutes before we jumped in the water.
In more details:

I arrived in High Springs 1 day before the class. The first day we went over the equipment, I was aiming for rec pass on single. I let also the instructor know that I have the double set and canister from another GUE friend that he gave it to me just in case I was performing well the first day on single. The instructor had no idea on how I dive, but he understood well that I am very comfortable in the water during the swimming test. I am overweight and a bit out of shape, but I had been a very successful competitive swimmer in the past.

The first day of the in-water instruction I am prepared and I had already set my single setup. The instructor comes and sets his equipment along with my buddy, and starts the discussion:
- Are you diving single?
- I mean that's how I dive, and I still have many issues to fix.
- Well... you have doubles, don't you want to try them?
- I have never tried doubles before, I have no idea how to set them up, etc. I would like to at least get a provisional Rec pass, and I think I might risk it if I add so many new things.
- Ok, so... you can aim for a potentially easy boring goal, or you can set the bar a bit higher and get more from the class by finishing with a strong provisional rec pass with doubles and canister.
- How many students of my experience (less than 40 dives at the time) have you seen achieving such Rec pass?
- Few, but we can switch back to single if you have trouble.
- **** it. Let's do it.

10 seconds after I got in the water I was wondering why I haven't done it from the first dive. I was far more stable, better trim, and better control. The only negative was/is that you need to start adding air much sooner during descent. At the second day tec pass seemed achievable. I ended up with a rec pass due to buoyancy issues related mostly on not taking my time during the skills. The initial recommendation was provisional but I could not guarantee enough practice and availability to take the class in the next 6 months.

I truly believe that if it was achievable by myself, should be achievable for most divers out there, assuming they have the least of familiarity with BP/W and long hose. Please note that I had less than 40 dives before taking GUE-F but ALL of them on BP/W and long hose from day 1. I have never touched a jacket, thus I might had to break less of bad habits.

 

[broncobowsher]

I look at it as doing doubles in a wetsuit as a get an initial feel for what they are. Not I'm going full on tech diving with doubles in a wetsuit. For that as long as you realize what limitations you may encounter (not diving bottomless ocean without redundant buoyancy stuff) I say go for it. I would start in a pool.

 

[happy-diver]

Learning to dive again because you have added an extra tank and reg to your back
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

DIR-diver.com - Adjust the backplate

Information about Doing It Right (DIR) diving, equipment and procedures.

dir-diver.com

Alumimnium tanks on your back
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

DIR-diver.com - Reg configuration doubles

Information about Doing It Right (DIR) diving, equipment and procedures.

dir-diver.com

S drills,
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Are S-Drills BS?

The underlying goals behind the traditional S-Drill are vital. Unfortunately, this skill, as commonly taught, fails to meet them.

cavediving.com

Asking permission to dive with an extra tank on your back and paying someone to show you
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Priceless

 

[ofg-1]

There was a time when recreational dry suits were just not readily available, with the exception of the Unisuit. There were thousands of dives in double 104's in a wetsuit, with horsecollar BC's or belly bags, and most of us survived.

 

[Angelo Farina]

This is 100% wrong. There are a ton of nuances to diving doubles. Let's ignore the obvious such as proper use of a long hose in an OOA situation. You need to understand how to properly size your harness, where your plate should lay on your back, how to adjust band heighths, how to adjust all of those things in order to trim out properly, and how to do valve drills effectively. The fitting of the bp/w and harness seems easy, but I've seen more people turtling, flipping feet over head, and just generally unsteady all because they're not properly fitted.
I learned to dive doubles from a mentor 15 years ago. 2 years ago I took GUE fundies. I thought I was pretty well versed in all of the things I mentioned above. On day 1, I realized I was wrong. I wish in retrospect I had taken some proper instruction on diving doubles. I hated doubles for many years and preferred sidemount, all because I had no idea my harness and doubles weren't set up properly.

I agree with you on the analysis of troubles. But the problems about adjusting weights and bands and harness occur the same whenever you change the tank. As I already pointed out, switching from a 15 liters steel to an AL80 is causing more weight and trim variation than switching to a compact 7+7 or 8+8 liters steel.
Same for the valves: the reversed-T double valve of my 15 liters steel is much more similar to the double valve of a twin set than the crap single valve of an AL80, which would force me to get rid of one of ny two first stages and configure one of the two second stages as an octopus...
When you change the tank you are used to, it all depends how much the new tank(s) are similar or different to the tank you was using previously.
Here in the Mediterranean the standard tanks for rec diving are 15-liters steel at 200 or 232 bars. Switching to a compact twin steel set with the same gas capacity is not a big deal, as weight and buoyancy remain the same, the rig is better balanced, more streamlined, and the valves are easier to reach.
Of course, instead, if your standard tank is an AL80 with single valve, the change is significant.
But it will be easier to use a compact 7+7 liters steel than a bulky 15-liters...
And in any case getting proper asset and trim in a wet suit is easier than having to also manage amount and position of gas in a dry suit.
In warm water, the easiest is simply to use no suit, or just a protective suit, with no buoyancy variation due to depth.
In these conditions I did happily use a bulky 10+10 liters twin tank with no suit and no BCD...
What is not there, does not cause any problem...

 

[Celt]

If you started with a twinset you’d most likely be asking the same question about a single. 2 smaller tanks will always trim out better than a large single once you go over 10ltrs. If you put the same time into adjusting a twin set as you would a single your trim will be better in the doubles setup and it’s the most efficient way to carry greater amounts of gas. I never had a problem carrying multiple tanks in a wet suit. Used 2 12ltrs and a 7ltr in a triple setup with an O’Dare 7+7mm but not recommending it.

 

[ginti]

Also I came very close to a tec pass, so you can even get a tec pass in a wetsuit.

Getting a tec pass in a wet suit is highly limiting, except if you plan to do all your dives in very (very!) warm water.

This is 100% wrong. There are a ton of nuances to diving doubles. Let's ignore the obvious such as proper use of a long hose in an OOA situation. You need to understand how to properly size your harness, where your plate should lay on your back, how to adjust band heighths, how to adjust all of those things in order to trim out properly, and how to do valve drills effectively. The fitting of the bp/w and harness seems easy, but I've seen more people turtling, flipping feet over head, and just generally unsteady all because they're not properly fitted.

Don't you need to learn these things for any *BP/W + long-hose* configuration if you have never learned them before?
Also, the "100% wrong" thing is, frankly speaking, just bad. @Angelo Farina had just an opinion, saying that doubles are nothing special for him. It is personal, and, for example, it was the same for me - although doubles are different, I found it very easy to learn using them.

I'll work on getting a drysuit. I'm a bit skeptical of the stock size thing. I highly doubt that will work, but we will see. I'm just now recovering from some financial setbacks, so it's a lesson in patience.

If you don't have a lot of experience with the drysuit and need it for your dives (namely, you want to do tech and/or cold water dives), I would start here.

Believe it or not, doubles are hard for some people, but they are easy for others (I found them so easy and actually more stable than single cylinders). Drysuit management, in my experience, has always been challenging for everyone (and always harder than doubles).

 

[Celt]

If you’re hell bent on doing a course to learn doubles then go for it.