LDS Wars! VIP or VIP+, Who is right????

[idocsteve]

I live on Long Island, Suffolk county more specifically. I patronize 2 local dive shops, who have very different views regarding visual inspections of AL80 tanks.

I am not sure if I can post the full name of the dive shops, so I am using their initials only. Anyone familiar with Long Island will know who they are.

TDS says that all aluminum tanks must have a VIP+, not simply a VIP. For those of you who are not familiar with a VIP+, it is a visual inspection, plus a scan using a computer program to find more potential problems in the tank.

LIS says that VIP+ is not necessary for aluminum tanks, they will fill aluminum tanks that have a current VIP.

TDS will not fill tanks that have a LIS VIP sticker on them, and in response, apparently LIS will sometimes refuse to fill tanks that bear a VIP sticker from TDS!

So who's right? I thought that tanks manufactured by Luxfer during certain years needed additional testing because they were subject to cracking, but not other brands of tanks....

 

[SDAnderson]

You are.

 

[dl348]

Take a PSI or TDI cylinder inspector course and do the VIPs yourself. Problem solved.
Or buy a steel tank.
Just my .02

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Visual Plus inspections are required for 6351T-6 alloy tanks. 6351 alloy tanks were made by Luxfer until about mid 1988 and Walter Kidde until about 1990. Catalina never used 6351 alloy so none of their tanks require a Visual Plus inspection.

Visual Plus inspections of 6061 alloy tanks done with older Visual Plus, Visual Plus 2 and Visual Eddy equipment can actually result in false positives on 6061 tanks and consequently Visual Plus inspections are not recommended on 6061 tanks with those devices.

The newer Visual Plus 3 and Visual Eddy V equipment can be used on 6061 tanks, but a Visual Plus inspection is not required by either Luxfer or the DOT on those tanks. Personally, I do not see the need for that inspection on a 6061 alloy tank where sustained load cracks are not an issue. A shop may have purchased newer Visual Plus 3 or Visual Eddy V, equipment but they should not be putting customers to additional and needless expense to pay for it. If they have not purchased the newer equipment (available for about the last year), they have no business whatsoever testing 6061 tanks and calling the test either reliable or valid.

Now, as you have discovered, that does not prevent certain shops from requiring Visual Plus inspections on 6061 tanks or from getting snotty and refusing to honor VIP's from other shops. Both are symptoms of a shop that likes to look for additional revenue sources and is not concerned about gouging customers in the process.

If it were me, I would not be spending my money with TDS.

 

[Dive-aholic]

I have a couple of 6351s in NJ that a LDS refuses to fill because they've been "condemned". I brought in literature concerning the "condemnation" and it didn't matter. But, hey, they're filling the tanks. It is their rear on the line. Their loss. My tanks go elsewhere. They're a business and they have a right to refuse services to anyone they want to for any reason. You are a customer and have the right to spend money where you want to. I'm with DA, TDS would not be getting my money.

 

[DennisW]

As usual, DA Aquamaster has it right on the money.

 

[oxyhacker]

The divestore is right because they are the one with the stickers. If you had stickers, then you would be right.

At least you would be until the tank needed filling, and then the one with the compressor would be right.

Since the annual visual inspection done on scuba tanks is not a matter of law there are no "official" standards. So every shop is entitled to make their own rules, even such blantantly stupid ones as insisting on v+ testing of steel tanks, and the customer has the choice of liking it or going elsewhere.

In the case of the V+ the situation is a little more complicated, because tanks so inspected are usually specially marked as such, which leaves the shop the option of refusing to fill your tanks if you don't let them inspect them according to their rules.

The closest thing there seems to be to an official requirement is Luxfer's rule that 6351 tanks must be eddy current inspected every 2.5 years.

 

[roakey]

So who's right? I thought that tanks manufactured by Luxfer during certain years needed additional testing because they were subject to cracking, but not other brands of tanks....

From the horse's mouth; Luxfer press releases dealing with this issue:

http://www.luxfercylinders.com/news/releases/20050929.shtml
http://www.luxfercylinders.com/news/releases/20041011.shtml

Now my two cents worth. If LDS' don't stop making up stupid rules such as "we dont fill THEIR tanks" the "self-regulating" SCUBA industry won't be for too much longer...

Roak

Here are some other press releases you may wnat to give to these LDS' as well (and I'd suggest every diver take some time and read them too to be a well-informed customer):

http://www.luxfercylinders.com/news/releases/19980304.shtml
http://www.luxfercylinders.com/news/releases/19991028.shtml
http://www.luxfercylinders.com/news/releases/20000301.shtml (contains pointer to free cylinder inspection guide!)

 

[idocsteve]

Thanks for all of the information provided thus far. It seems that my original theory was correct, that VIP+ inspections are not required for every brand and year of tank, but the LDS can make up their own rules, although we are not forced to follow them- we can take our business elsewhere to avoid their unreasonable and more expensive policies.

 

[wedivebc]

I say the guy filling the tank has the right to make whatever rule he wants (no matter how stupid) just as you have the right to get your tank filled somewhere else if you don't agree with the rule. Armed with the information provided here you may want to speak with the LDS requiring vis+ on all tanks but if your experience has been like mine your argument will fall on deaf ears. I bought a compressor, took the PSI training and inspect my own but YMMV