LDS Wars! VIP or VIP+, Who is right????

[Davesub]

The divestore is right because they are the one with the stickers. If you had stickers, then you would be right.

At least you would be until the tank needed filling, and then the one with the compressor would be right.

Since the annual visual inspection done on scuba tanks is not a matter of law there are no "official" standards. So every shop is entitled to make their own rules, even such blantantly stupid ones as insisting on v+ testing of steel tanks, and the customer has the choice of liking it or going elsewhere.

In the case of the V+ the situation is a little more complicated, because tanks so inspected are usually specially marked as such, which leaves the shop the option of refusing to fill your tanks if you don't let them inspect them according to their rules.

The closest thing there seems to be to an official requirement is Luxfer's rule that 6351 tanks must be eddy current inspected every 2.5 years.

While I agree there are no "Official Standards" for Scuba Tanks that I can find yet. There are recommendations given by the DOT here:
http://hazmat.dot.gov/regs/notices/sa/not99_11.pdf
I'm sure if I looked further in at DOT there is some law or something about the scuba tanks. I bet there is no law if you never take them on the streets and keep them at your house but once they hit the street the DOT has something to say about it.

I had a LDS here VIP 2 of my tanks but refused to fill them. They actually put a VIP sticker on them and were willing to let me leave with them, which I did. They were both made in 1977 from 6351 aluminum. But he who owns compressor has final say in filling a tank. According to the above link the hydro retester should be doing the eddy current NDT testing on these tanks before they hydro them. If your local LDS charges you extra money for an eddy current test after the hydro tester already did it, then your paying for it twice! Thats if the Hydro tester is actually doing the NDT on the tanks. On the DOT website you can get find out the information on the hydro facility by checking the hydro facility stamp markings that they mark on your tank at the time of testing.

On a side note: I bring my tanks directly to the hydro facility and not the LDS and save about $15 a tank on a hydro.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

The DOT has authority in matters of interstate commerce, so using a non hydro'd tank to transport compressed gas within the state does not fall under DOT jurisdiction (although some states may use the same or similar requirements.)

As an aside, you could still be carrying a filled tank that has not been hydro'd or filled since WWII and technically be legal as the prohibition is against filling an out of hydro tank for use in interstate commerce, not having and transporting one filled before the hydro expired.

The rub is that DOT will issue a violation to a shop for filling an out of hydro tank even if the owner aserts it will not be used for interstate transport as it is generally assumed that filled tanks will be readily transported across state lines. DOT would probably issue a violation for a shop that filled an out of hydro tank for use on site in it's own pool. It's exactly the same argument used by the federal government busting "legal" personal/medical use pot growers in California under the assumption that the legally grown California pot will be illegally transported across state lines - making it a federal issue. Making those types of assumptions implies both a presumption of guilt and a presumed intent toviolate the law before any evidence of a violation even exists. So, I tend to have concerns when the government moves in that direction - even if it is supposed to be for my own protection.

With regard to VIP Plus inspections and hydro's. The hydro tester is required to do them to recertify the tank, but they should be done after the hydro test as the hydro test pressure and expansion will expand any incipient cracks and make them much more observable by both the visual and eddy current processes.

And you are exactly right that many, if not most, shops charge you for a VIP if you send them for hydro through the shop and if they do it at all, it is purely redundant and a way to make big bucks off you for a cheap sticker. Plus of course, they already mark up the cost of the hydro itself.

 

[oxyhacker]

The DOT authority was extended a few years ago to cover both intra and interstate commerce, based on exactly the sort of dubious logic you cite.

I have never been able to find a record of any enforcement actions against dive shops by the DOT for the filling of privately owned tanks. I have a couple letters from the DOT saying, and have been told several times in conversation with people in the hazmat division, that the filling of privately owned non-commercial tanks, even if done by a dive shop, is just none of the DOTs business and they are free to fill or overfill out-of-hydro or non-DOT tanks if they are so inclined. So I'd really be interested in knowing any details of DOT actions against dive shops.

The shop's own rental tanks are another matter altogether.

The DOT has authority in matters of interstate commerce, so using a non hydro'd tank to transport compressed gas within the state does not fall under DOT jurisdiction (although some states may use the same or similar requirements.)

As an aside, you could still be carrying a filled tank that has not been hydro'd or filled since WWII and technically be legal as the prohibition is against filling an out of hydro tank for use in interstate commerce, not having and transporting one filled before the hydro expired.

The rub is that DOT will issue a violation to a shop for filling an out of hydro tank even if the owner aserts it will not be used for interstate transport as it is generally assumed that filled tanks will be readily transported across state lines. DOT would probably issue a violation for a shop that filled an out of hydro tank for use on site in it's own pool. It's exactly the same argument used by the federal government busting "legal" personal/medical use pot growers in California under the assumption that the legally grown California pot will be illegally transported across state lines - making it a federal issue. Making those types of assumptions implies both a presumption of guilt and a presumed intent toviolate the law before any evidence of a violation even exists. So, I tend to have concerns when the government moves in that direction - even if it is supposed to be for my own protection.

With regard to VIP Plus inspections and hydro's. The hydro tester is required to do them to recertify the tank, but they should be done after the hydro test as the hydro test pressure and expansion will expand any incipient cracks and make them much more observable by both the visual and eddy current processes.

And you are exactly right that many, if not most, shops charge you for a VIP if you send them for hydro through the shop and if they do it at all, it is purely redundant and a way to make big bucks off you for a cheap sticker. Plus of course, they already mark up the cost of the hydro itself.

 

[pescador775]

I can't imagine that any DOT dept head would be interested in probing the limits of their authority by diddling with dive shops or (horrors) private citizens. That just wouldn't be smart, to go outside their job descriptions. The govt maintains order in our country by presenting the appearance of authority but will only act when some kids die after eating tainted burgers or a terrorist sets off a bomb. Generally, the agencies don't have the manpower or initiative to be looking through bedroom windows, or even checking the quality of your food supply, a task that they ARE charged with. Typically, they are happy to sit at their desks and field a few phone calls,attend meetings, go to seminars on EEO, and write a report now and then. Rubber stamping is a common time passer. This activity, or lack thereof, may vary from time to time depending on Congressional actions and funding for specific programs. Generally, snooping around dive shops would be considered a low priority or even a waste of public funds as a Republican administration generally puts in political appointees who will "get govt off people's backs". That might change in the face of a rash of tank explosions but that is highly unlikely because of the manufacturing and inspection standards that already exist and are generally complied with.If the Democrats take over, one could expect more funding for the BATF, less funding for drug interdiction but DOT inspection of dive shops would not even be on the radar screen, IMO. Over the years, there has been much talk on Scuba board about the "legality" or filling tanks which are out of hydro. While not condoning this practice, most of the legal scenarios bandied about are equivalent to a group of scouts telling stories around the camp fire.