LDS Bashers

[mdb]

When it comes to badmouthing the competition (especially the internet) and telling scare stories; I thought Al was one of the main players these days!!! Are you saying he is not representing his "good guy" LDS owner in this regard. Maybe you should relook just the earlier part of the "scubapro online" thread where he told Larry how much he loved and respected him. Did I miss the apology? While I have no doubt that Rogue SCUBA is doing many things right and pleasing many of its customers, I get the impression that a Liesurepro catelog in that store would probably get about the same reception as a bible reading at the Iranian parliament. If I have misunderstood what is going on, I apoligize to all in advance and ask that you correct my misunderstandings.

Al is a dedicated, and very qualified instructor who works in a part of the world were people really want to dive. Southern Oregon has rain, and rain, and then more rain, fast moving streams and low vis lakes. If you learn to dive there you can dive anywhere. Maybe Rouge SCUBA is not a big internet dealer; they do have a great local facility, a great dive training pool, and dedicated dive instructors. We are in full support of them. We also are proud to have Larry Daque @ Scubatoys as an authorized dealer. Al has a strong opinion. As a old Marine, i kinda like that.

 

[redacted]

Why would a lesiurepro catalog be welcomed in any dive shop?

I never aplogized, Larry assumed I was angry with him and I wasn't.

I do poor mouth the internet on a regular basis but usually it's another customer in the shop doing the badmouthing. We've got a few customers who have been royally screwed by the net.

A few screwed I would expect. Even more having disappointing experiences I don't doubt. But a claim of "most" internet customers screwed just doesn't ring true. I understand that the internet is your main competition right now and it is a threat to your livelihood. Your shop offers quality gear at MSRP with full service. The internet offers those same quality goods, along with some lesser goods at some sites, at reduced prices with little or no service. Why not just stick to the positive sales pitch rather than the sour grapes. For divers seeking a high quality regulator with a service conditioned parts for life program because they want there regulator to be maintained IAW the manufacturers recommendation and have no desire to DIY, it's a pretty simple matter of running the numbers to see how long it takes for the "free" parts to overcome the higher initial cost. And you can do it with a fair markup of 100% on the parts without setting off the red flags I associate with much higher markups. That may not work with Scubatoys current online sale of fully covered Scubapro regs, but that should not last too long. That may need some other incentives to keep the customer home and happy but you are in their neighborhood so you just have to use the advantage that gives you for a while.

The dive shop I do business with doesn't really mind it when I walk in with a Leisurepro catelog. (I do understand the value of a reasonable amout of descression.) He knows I wouldn't do that for small stuff so he knows he is about to have an opportunity to make a larger sale. I don't expect him to match the prices, just giving him the opportunity to make a competative offer. If that were unacceptable, I would have to either pass him up on larger sales or find another shop altogether. Neither of those options does his bottom line much good,

 

[Wayward Son]

There is clearly no shortage of divers who've been screwed by an LDS somewhere, either. The net holds no monopoly over this aspect of the game.

 

[friscuba]

This is just like waiters whining because they don't make enough and they're entitled to tips....

If you don't like how things are then change them or suck it up. If you don't like people shopping on the internet then don't have a store or lower your prices. If you're such an economics expert you should know that already. Don't come on here and preach like the local LDS is doing me a favor. Go ahead and close your doors there will be other LDS's and there will always be someone to fill the gap.

Supply and demand....

The big city guys and those living in a few dive hotspots will always think "there will always be someone to fill the gap".

This is not the case in lots of the country. The town of 50,000 or so I lived in before moving to a diving area went from 3/4 shops to none. The town of 100,000 forty miles tot he south is down to one last I heard.

Once you get down to 1 shop in a 100 mile radius, that's not a lot of competition, doesn't necessarily bode well for the hobby.

 

[redacted]

I never aplogized, Larry assumed I was angry with him and I wasn't.

.

Yeah, maybe Larry thought you were refering to somebody else when you said, "You won't get a factory warrantly buying scuba pro online no matter what lies an internet site spews up." Heck, maybe he enjoyed it so much he will work that theme into his advertising banner. I can't even imagine some one so perfect that they never need to apologize. Or some one who is unable to apologize when it is the right thing to do.

 

[scubafool]

I do poor mouth the internet on a regular basis but usually it's another customer in the shop doing the badmouthing. We've got a few customers who have been royally screwed by the net.

And the internet retailers have customers who have been screwed by a dive shop. Tit for tat, and we could go back and forth for quite a while and get nowhere.

My singles BP/W I got off of the internet. I would say that was the single best diving purchase I have ever made. Two different dive shops tried their best to sell me a BC that just wasn't suited to the diving I told them I wanted to do. My 2 regs for my doubles were bought from 2 different dive shops. I got a really good price without having to haggle, and lots of non partisan no BS advice at both places. My can light I bought off of the net. I shopped a few dive shops before buying, but no one came close to the product or price I ended up with. Even though I had an issue with it, the retailer stepped up to the plate & took care of me. My new computer I bought off of the net. Now this is one purchase that I am not overjoyed about. I probably would not have bought this particular model if I had played with it before purchasing, but this could have been avoided by a little more research, my bad. All of my masks have been bought at dive shops, as I wanted to try them on. All of my instruction has come from the internet, the local cave instructors just can't compete with LeisurePro on this, same with the fills.......

 

[ghostdiver1957]

Lets clear a few things up...

There is the internet (legit shops and dealers etc...,) then there is the internet (Ebay, Scam Artists etc...) then there is Internet (retailers selling gear - like Amazon.com etc...) In all of that there is good and bad. Then there are specialty gear internet shops/ retailers... like say you're looking for an Underwater Digital or film camera or a video set up. Would you really pay a shop double for a Sea & Sea camera that you can get at B&H? If so, why?

I've bought thousands of dollars of gear on the internet... from LeisurePro.com, Divers Direct.com, Scubatoys.com, DiveUS.com, ScubaDestinations.com, Scuba.com, poseidonadventures.com etc... and I've been thrilled with every purchase. I have saved money, got my items quickly and without hassle and in most all cases with a full warranty.

I have also bought many used items from people on Ebay... and I have been thrilled every single time. I've gotten quality regs, BCD/s fins etc... The key is being an educated and smart Ebayer. Don't buy from people with 0 feedback or a bunch of negatives. Also be leary of buying from anyone who has a lot of positive feedback from the same buyer. This shows as fraud. Don't buy from anyone with lots of great feedback but all of it is so old you can't click and see what the items are... these are often fraud Ebay'ers that somehow hijacked a good name. There are tricks and tips all over Ebay's chat and postings... educate yourself before buying.

It is no secret that the industry is in trouble... and bigtime trouble at that. I was just talking with a senior executive for a major training agency that goes to the RSTC meetings... according to her, much of the industry is shutting down. Shops are being lost left and right and in Europe, some government agencies are looking at pulling the training licenses of PADI & SSI because their new dumbed down programs do not meet safety standards required by the governments - in particular Germany has put them on notice.

The industry and in particular SSI and PADI executives have turned a once proud sport into a money making capitalist disgrace... short on standards and long on profits.
While this may seem to be off subject... I argue it is point on. Far too many dive shops have been opened to support the industry as it should be. They were opened by capitalist looking to exploit an industry. The shame is that many people were duped by the major agencies into believing this was a big-time profit opportunity right near the dawning of the internet taking off. The agencies pushed people and supported people opening shops because this would allow them to sell, sell, sell their training materials and make off with the real money... all the while leaving the shops to struggle as pawns in the game.

I suspect that shops that have been established for a long time and have continued to offer exceptional service and value will survive... but all the newer shops that burgeoned up in recent years and do not have strong client bases and long term vision will go the way of the dinosaurs.

While I do not ever favor government intervention, I see it coming... not so much because the industry as a sport needs it... but because the greed of the major agencies and their disrespect for the tradition of the sport will force the governments hand. Lucky for Scuba in this country - that our goverment currently has far bigger fish to fry.

 

[bruehlt]

The industry and in particular SSI and PADI executives have turned a once proud sport into a money making capitalist disgrace... short on standards and long on profits.
While this may seem to be off subject... I argue it is point on. Far too many dive shops have been opened to support the industry as it should be. They were opened by capitalist looking to exploit an industry. The shame is that many people were duped by the major agencies into believing this was a big-time profit opportunity right near the dawning of the internet taking off. The agencies pushed people and supported people opening shops because this would allow them to sell, sell, sell their training materials and make off with the real money... all the while leaving the shops to struggle as pawns in the game.

I agree that the industry is doing this to themselves - they have no one else to blame for it.

It all comes down to money, as you've said. I won't place blame on any one agency in particular, moreso I think the concept of a free market is starting to swing around again.

What's happening may not initially be a good thing - but as economics shows, it will get better with time - manufacturers will start to realize that they can't make huge profits and price protect their products, and prices / services / whatever will bare what the market demands for them (thanks to the internet).

 

[ScubaMike14]

All of my instruction has come from the internet, the local cave instructors just can't compete with LeisurePro on this, same with the fills.......

Allright, perhaps I am reading this wrong:

1. You got all of your certifications through the Internet? Even Cave?
2. When did LeisurePro start doing online training to include Cave Cert?
3. LeisurePro does air fills via the internet? Never seen a USB connection with a fill whip on the end of it.

Mike

 

[JeffG]

3. LeisurePro does air fills via the internet? Never seen a USB connection with a fill whip on the end of it.

Mike

Not leisurepro...diveriteexpress

http://www.diveriteexpress.com/gas/etherfill.shtml