PerroneFord
Contributor
You said you had a question?
LDS Bashers
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Ok so this has been fun.
I'm pretty much all for a good deal but I do see the value in the good old lds so long as it is a good one.
LDS's and internet stores all have overheads the internet store just has a bigger servicing area.
Personally I use my LDS. I like the personal touch, the cup of coffee, the chat, the getting my stuff when I pay for it. No waiting for the courier dude. Thats me. Instant gratification!
[Sorry I can't resist: Still think it is strange to compare car sales to LDS's. The 15% 'profit' on a R200 000 car is a whole lot more than the 100% profit on a R3000 BC. Besides most of the stuff in SA is not marked up close to 100%. Not to mention the ratio of car owners to divers.]
I'm pretty much all for a good deal but I do see the value in the good old lds so long as it is a good one.
LDS's and internet stores all have overheads the internet store just has a bigger servicing area.
Personally I use my LDS. I like the personal touch, the cup of coffee, the chat, the getting my stuff when I pay for it. No waiting for the courier dude. Thats me. Instant gratification!
[Sorry I can't resist: Still think it is strange to compare car sales to LDS's. The 15% 'profit' on a R200 000 car is a whole lot more than the 100% profit on a R3000 BC. Besides most of the stuff in SA is not marked up close to 100%. Not to mention the ratio of car owners to divers.]
IlikeItwetPls
Contributor
Rick Murchison:
I believe the Dive Industry is cutting it's own throat by keeping prices inflated. Price fixing and such is keeping people from buying in the local dive shop.
LDS owners don't buy things at 'whatever price' because the sellers feelings will get hurt, or they may go out of business. The LDS gets the best price they can, just as the gear buyer does when they enter the shop, or shop online.
As with any business, you accept the challenge of meeting the needs of the customer, and trying to make a profit...Dive shops are not Agriculture, so the government is not going to subsidies you.
As with the LDS, making a profit is the business side; my business it trying to get the best deal, price I can. I have a budget too.
lamont
Contributor
mnj1233:
in the absence of regulation, the market.
The analogy to car dealerships is not about the % of profit. It is about the industry realizing there is a tool (internet) and acknolwedging / embracing the possibilities.
My "internet purchased vehicle" was still picked up at a local dealer. The process made my buying simpler.. less haggling, less time = more efficiency.
The same can be seen at retailers like Best Buy.. I can shop online (compare pricing, etc.) purchase the item, and even go pick it up locally where it will be waiting for me.. The [local stores] inventory is tied into the online systems.. So, I do not waste time (gas) shopping around. I get the best price and can have the instant gratification.
Why can't a major manufacturer like SP setup the web site, adjust pricing.. and offer to ship to your local dealer? That is a win-win.. You get the big name company offering to help the consumer and the LDS? Again, win-win..
It is not a "who is winning" question. It is a matter of those that will adapt, will survive.
The issue of attitudes and treatment [towards customers] is another story...
My "internet purchased vehicle" was still picked up at a local dealer. The process made my buying simpler.. less haggling, less time = more efficiency.
The same can be seen at retailers like Best Buy.. I can shop online (compare pricing, etc.) purchase the item, and even go pick it up locally where it will be waiting for me.. The [local stores] inventory is tied into the online systems.. So, I do not waste time (gas) shopping around. I get the best price and can have the instant gratification.
Why can't a major manufacturer like SP setup the web site, adjust pricing.. and offer to ship to your local dealer? That is a win-win.. You get the big name company offering to help the consumer and the LDS? Again, win-win..
It is not a "who is winning" question. It is a matter of those that will adapt, will survive.
The issue of attitudes and treatment [towards customers] is another story...
cyklon_300
Contributor
Al Mialkovsky:
attitude...
Two shops that each received more than $1500 in sales from me never once offered a free fill or discount of any kind...I would love to show them the invoices for my online sales that they could have had if they hadn't opted to be greedy and unwilling to throw in perks.
PADI Knight
Guest
For what it's worth's. My daughter and I took OW this summer at the only LDS in town $500.00 (they were having a special $250.00 per class). That was there decision to offer the "deal" not mine. No time during the class were we pressured to buy gear from the shop ! However, during and after the class neither was the shop helpful in assisting us looking into gear weren't offered to try it or anything 
. Prices listed for full set of gear ranged from $900.00-$1,200.00. Tried to broach the subject of a "deal" since would be purchasing a complete set of gear X2 nothing was ever offered and the discusison died. ! Tried to broach the chance of used purchase or rental gear that they my be liquidating nothing was ever offered and the discusison died. ! Purchased antifog for $8.00 and slap straps for $12.00 as needed for class.
After class started reading here and decided to look on ebay and purchased a set of regs that I took to LDS who is an authorized AL shop for service and rebuild if needed which they did after a little help from me since the tech didn't know how to "unlock" the primary of US Diver's pro diver reg (earlier posts). Anyway, I have been trying to work up a sales talk for BCD's for the two of us and never really got anywhere. They had what I wanted but not very willing to discuss it much. Didn't even get to try any on of me "fitted". So I decided to do the only thing available I purchased the BC's I wanted off ebay got great deals on both for fraction of the cost it would have been new and the both look great and work the same. I also purchased regs for daughter online and they look and work great too and came with service papers.
As far as servicing goes when they need service I'll take them to LDS since my rebuild was only $12.00 for parts so the PFL isn't a deal maker as much as the initial cost associated with starting in the sport. Bottom line LDS lost :dollar: :dollar: since they were unwilling to "work" with a new customer. We're set all we need from LDS now is fills and annual service which I'm happy to pay them for. Since daughter is going to college in major in marine science doubt I'll be using the LDS for dive trips as will probably have 4-5 a year where she's at as long as I'm driving down to pick her up and drop her off.
! However, during and after the class neither was the shop helpful in assisting us looking into gear weren't offered to try it or anything . Prices listed for full set of gear ranged from $900.00-$1,200.00. Tried to broach the subject of a "deal" since would be purchasing a complete set of gear X2 nothing was ever offered and the discusison died. ! Tried to broach the chance of used purchase or rental gear that they my be liquidating nothing was ever offered and the discusison died. ! Purchased antifog for $8.00 and slap straps for $12.00 as needed for class.After class started reading here and decided to look on ebay and purchased a set of regs that I took to LDS who is an authorized AL shop for service and rebuild if needed which they did after a little help from me since the tech didn't know how to "unlock" the primary of US Diver's pro diver reg (earlier posts). Anyway, I have been trying to work up a sales talk for BCD's for the two of us and never really got anywhere. They had what I wanted but not very willing to discuss it much. Didn't even get to try any on of me "fitted". So I decided to do the only thing available I purchased the BC's I wanted off ebay got great deals on both for fraction of the cost it would have been new and the both look great and work the same. I also purchased regs for daughter online and they look and work great too and came with service papers.
As far as servicing goes when they need service I'll take them to LDS since my rebuild was only $12.00 for parts so the PFL isn't a deal maker as much as the initial cost associated with starting in the sport. Bottom line LDS lost :dollar: :dollar: since they were unwilling to "work" with a new customer. We're set all we need from LDS now is fills and annual service which I'm happy to pay them for. Since daughter is going to college in major in marine science doubt I'll be using the LDS for dive trips as will probably have 4-5 a year where she's at as long as I'm driving down to pick her up and drop her off.
Wise dive shop owners recognize that they offer four lines of "product":
1. Education and Training, both initial as well as continuing;
2. Maintenance and Repair;
3. Travel and Adventure;
4. Retail Sales
Education and certification is not something that will be available, in any quality sense, over the internet.
Maintenance and Repair covers a broad range, not only annual service to regulators but also O2 cleaning of tanks, valves, and manifolds, replacing drysuit seals, and could even be extended to things such as camera repairs or service and other u/w imaging needs. It is not (conveniently) available over the internet.
Travel and Adventure - ask most divers why they dive and "comraderie" will be part of the response. They want to do things with their friends and significant others. Enabling such adventures by organizing group travel cannot be done over the internet as efficiently and effectively as by a well-connected dive shop owner...networking among students and acquaintances - which leads to demand for both the above services.
Retail is the only line of "product" where the internet truly competes, and if you divide retail sales into consumables, such as gas fills, and non-consumables then the internet only competes on part of retail.
Enterprising dive shop owners have done much in terms of fill cards and annual fill pricing to provide gas fills at competitive prices.
So, the internet only truly competes in one out of four potential product lines.
The dive shop of the future, and you can bet there will continue to be dive shops in the future, will find a way to leverage their advantage on the other three product lines.
Very few divers, when asked "why do you love to dive?", answer "Well...I just love to buy and own the gear". It isn't about the gear, for most divers.
It's about what you do with the gear.
Thats the part of diving where the internet can't compete. Shop owners need to think about that.
1. Education and Training, both initial as well as continuing;
2. Maintenance and Repair;
3. Travel and Adventure;
4. Retail Sales
Education and certification is not something that will be available, in any quality sense, over the internet.
Maintenance and Repair covers a broad range, not only annual service to regulators but also O2 cleaning of tanks, valves, and manifolds, replacing drysuit seals, and could even be extended to things such as camera repairs or service and other u/w imaging needs. It is not (conveniently) available over the internet.
Travel and Adventure - ask most divers why they dive and "comraderie" will be part of the response. They want to do things with their friends and significant others. Enabling such adventures by organizing group travel cannot be done over the internet as efficiently and effectively as by a well-connected dive shop owner...networking among students and acquaintances - which leads to demand for both the above services.
Retail is the only line of "product" where the internet truly competes, and if you divide retail sales into consumables, such as gas fills, and non-consumables then the internet only competes on part of retail.
Enterprising dive shop owners have done much in terms of fill cards and annual fill pricing to provide gas fills at competitive prices.
So, the internet only truly competes in one out of four potential product lines.
The dive shop of the future, and you can bet there will continue to be dive shops in the future, will find a way to leverage their advantage on the other three product lines.
Very few divers, when asked "why do you love to dive?", answer "Well...I just love to buy and own the gear". It isn't about the gear, for most divers.
It's about what you do with the gear.
Thats the part of diving where the internet can't compete. Shop owners need to think about that.
JeffG
Contributor
Yep. Maybe during the evolution of dive stores, one of the permutations will be that it becomes more like a specialized travel agent.Doc Intrepid:
Xanthro
Guest
Doc Intrepid:
Absolutely!!
Really, over time more is spent on 1 and 3 than retail sales. While the profit margins might not be as high, it's a steady flow of cash.
I book boat trips all the time, I'll be travelling to Borneo on a dive trip next year. I take classes as well.
A successful trip means I want to go back and join that group again. That's more money for the LDS.
A successful retail sale means I don't have to buy that kind of item again!!
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