Law and the distance regarding boats and dive flags

[Packhorse]

100FT WOW!!! is that all???

In NZ no vessel my travel more than 5kts within 200 meters (660ft) of a boat flying the alpha flag. (international dive flag blue/white)

Not that it is inforced or followed.

 

[Groundhog246]

There is a law in Canada for flag Alpha, since that's part of international marine law (although I don't know what the required distance is). But the alpha flag is only legally required on vessels engaged in commercial diving operations. And it's got to be a minimum 1 Meter rigid flag.

What we've been discussing here is the red with diagonal white 'divers' flag and generally in the context of shore diving. On boat dives there's generally someone left aboard (at least it's adviseable to leave someone aboard) and they can warn off other boaters (not that that always helps). It's the lone buddy pair towing a dive flag that get's they flag lifted or ignored.

There is a boating test/proficiency card requirment in Canada, but it's being phased in and won't be fully implemented till 2009. At the moment all operators of vessels under 4 meters in length (most PWCs) are legaly required to have a card. But enforcement is low, the test is a joke (you can take it online!!!). And although the dive flag is mentioned in any of the study guides I've seen, it's rarely a question on the tests and you only need 75% of 36 questions correct to pass, so you can get the dive flag question wrong.

IMHO, you should not have BOW students in an environment where they might surface into boat traffic.

 

[NorthernShrinkage]

As an instructor Your responsible for your students when they are in the water and its your responsibility to make sure your students do not end up under a boat by pre briefing before entering the water. New divers with new skills to learn in a strange wet environment can lead to situations.

JD

Im not an instructor nor did I ever claim to be . I do though claim to be a Divemaster and if you will recall how many incidents over the past 2 years were BOW courses held in Barrie at least 5 I can recall 3 of which I beleive were fatal. So before you go shooting your gab off you might want to get the facts. This is why the Instructor and shop I work for chooses to take its BOW students to a quiet spot with rare boat traffic and yes the students are briefed .

 

[Sirius Diver]

the test is a joke (you can take it online!!!).

It certainly is. I took it during some off time while serving in Afghanistan...

 

[Jurrasicdiver]

Your my hero Sirius diver. ATTENTION.

JD

 

[Sam Miller III]

I am not from Canada, but I have a vested interest since my wife is from the big T.

A little history..the dive flag was developed in Michigan in the late 1950s by Ted Nixon. It was established as a flag of diving but was never recognized as an offical flag of diving in the US and posibly the world. The offical flag is the international blue & white flag. Never the less the divers throughout the world immediately embraced the red and white flag as their own -- the only sport that has it's own international symbol of their activity.

As a recognized symbol it has been tested in a US court of law, (Toso vs Burns etal 1963 California.) The victim Toso, was struct and very seriously injured while displaying a red and white divers flag by Burns in a speeding 40 foot boat in a known and recognized diving area of Sothern California. The verdict under international maritime law is by percentages -Burns 95 % for causing the accident and injury to Toso; Toso 5 % for being in the water. I appeared as a professional witness in that case which was the first test of a then new untested divers flag in a court of law.

A few years later I was honored as the very first guest editor of Skin Diver magazine and wrote about displaying the flag while diving. The theme of my editorial was the flag will not protect you from injury but in case there is an accident the injured party will have legal recourse....I do not know the legal remifications in Canada but would suggest they would possibly be the same.

I am aware and some what involved in the terrible accident at Tobermory--which has yet to be adjucated---when it is resolved it should establish the legal rights of a diver flying a flag in Canada.

In the 1950s and 1960s the divers of the US established a program to educate the general public and boaters via posters and hand outs at most docks and launching facilities. It was very sucessful in California which is very diving orientated. Might be a program to establish in Canada during the summer diving months.

This is about the best advice I can give to God's frozen people,

cheers from CenCal,
SDM

 

[Groundhog246]

I hadn't heard about an incident in Toby. It's a little different if they were inside the park, as it's a National Park and has it's own legally enforcable rules in the park, where a dive flag is required and boats are required to respect it. So an issue settled under those terms, in Canada, may not apply anywhere else in Canada.
Many of the incidents that have been mentioned in passing, such as at least one death of a BOW student near Barrie, are cases where divers are diving in or near marked navigation channels and beside docks. And I always thought the purpose of a dock, was to tie up a boat, therefore any diver diving within 100 feet of a dock, should expect boats in the vicinity.
It's kinda like diving a motorcycle. Even if you do have the right of way, in the case of a collision, you might be dead right.
The red and white dive flag has no legal standing in Canadian Federal Law as far as right of way and distances. Where it is mentioned by Transport Canada, it's only mentioned for boaters and then as a minimum 1 meter rigid flag. Hard to make the jump from that to a 12 inch flag on a small float, being towed by a diver. And speaking as a boater, the average dive flag/float is almost impossible to see until your right on top of it. Our local club uses 3 foot inflateable bright orange tetrahedrons as race markers and they're hard enough to see, when you're actively searching for them, at anything much over 1/4 mile.

I agree that an educational campaign would be time and $$ well spent.