Land of Free Speech

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Arnaud, thank you. I was not familiar with the case and hadn't looked it up. I think we're on the near pages of the same book, if not precisely on the same page.

Pufferfish, the link is to an advocacy group that is trying to change the law as it is in places like New York. This is approach a good thing for the country--debating issues and laws.

The cacaphony of free speech on the web is so high and thorough I'm sometimes surprised that it's been allowed to survive.
 
It would be interesting to know if there has been any decision since Hudgens v. NLRB (1976). In some prior decisions, it seems the Court had held that a mall could be the equivalent of a town, where people are free to come and go, like a public street.

Since 1976, the number of malls in the States has drastically increased. They're everywhere. An argument can be made that malls have been responsible for the "destruction" of many downtown areas, driving local stores and shops out of business, acting as a magnet not only for hungry shoppers, but also for anyone who's looking for a movie to watch or a bite to eat. Outside of a few major cities like NYC, malls have become the ultimate meeting place. This was not necessarily the case in 1976.

So assuming that streets are considered a normal avenue (no pun intended) to exercise one's freedom of expression, isn't this right affected if no one's there to listen?
 
Arnaud once bubbled...


On top of it, I doubt very much that "give peace a chance" meets the standard of " the lewd and obscene, the profane, the libelous, and the insulting or "fighting" words--those which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace"...

Let me point out that a fairly sophisticated audience
[ScubaBoard] as shown some resentment. Now someone
wearing this shirt as we prepare to go to war might incite
a less sophisticated person to kick their butt. The mall
seeing that a dangerous situation exists might want to
eject that person with the shirt or ask them not to wear
it. That's a better choice than explaining in court why they
didn't when it was obvious that a dangerous situation was
developing on their property.
These arguements have been made so many times they're like clothes washed too many times.
 
Hudgens v. NLRB, 424 U.S. 507, 96 S.Ct 1029 (1978) abrogated the prior holding in Amalgamated Food Emp. Union Local 590 v. Logan Valley Plaza, Inc., 391 U.S. 508, 88 S.Ct. 1601, 20 L.Ed.2d 603 (1968), so there is little question that a shopping mall is not a public forum where speakers can insist upon First Amendment rights. Hudgens has not been overruled. However, a recent 9th Circuit case, Venetion Casino Resort, LLC v. Local Joint Executive Board of Las Vegas, 257 F.3d 937 (9th Cir. 2001), contains a good discussion of how allegedly private forums, such as a "private property" sidewalk, might actually be a public forum.

I believe that someone earlier raised an issue about free speech and Amtrak. That issue is discussed in Lebron v. National R. Passenger Corp., 513 U.S. 374, 115 S.Ct. 961, 130 L.Ed.2d 902 (1995). Amtrak is subject to the First Amendment, despite the fact that its charter declares it to be a private corporation.
 
Well, since it’s a Friday and you took the first step . . .

Wow, an opinion by Justice Stewart. This really reaches back. Good find but it’s slightly off topic. Although the speech in Hudgens occurred at a mall, the Supremes brushed off the ‘shopping mall issue” and focused on this as a dispute involving union organizers governed by the National Labor Relations Act rather than as a “hard core” free speech case (see, e.g., nude dancing cases, below). Hudgens decided what kind of union solicitations are permitted on the property of an employer, and under what circumstances. Tracking the progeny of Hudgens indicates that it is cited as controlling in labor disputes not free speech cases, with the following exceptions:

The only subsequent Supreme Court case dealing with Hudgens in any depth that comes close to the “shopping mall issue” was Carey, State’s Attorney of Cook County v. Brown (1980). In that case the Supremes invalidated a local anti-picking law, holding that peaceful protesters could run a picket line in front of the Mayor’s house (he must have loved that). But the issue was an Illinois law that allowed peaceful picketing by unions, but not by anyone else, violating the Fourteenth Amendment.

Shopping Mall Law: I think the load star case at the Supreme Court involves not a shopping mall but another type of heavily utilized “non-public” forum—an airport. In Intl. Soc. for Krishna Consciousness. v. Port Authority, Justice O’Connor wrote in 1991 that “publicly owned airports are not public fora. Unlike public streets and parks, both of which our First Amendment jurisprudence has identified as ‘traditional public fora,’ airports do not count among their purposes the ‘free exchange of ideas.’” That meant that owner had the right to regulate otherwise protected First Amendment activities. That was the end of annoying leaflets in airports and the Krishnas, who lost their prime means of fundraising.

This same “non-public fora” argument has been used to uphold the right of private parade organizers to exclude those with viewpoints they don’t (ahem) embrace, as in South Boston Allied War Veterans Council v. Irish-American Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual Group of Boston (1994), and to allow a university to charge an activity fee to fund general extracurricular political speech on campus (kind of the flip side: the private organization can require students to fund speech that some of them object to).

Searching with my rusty skills, I got over a hundred hits of appeallate cases. The ones that involved shopping malls either followed Justice Sandy’s “non-public fora” doctrine or were labor cases decided under Hudgens.

Now, if you don’t mind, scholarship demands that I go back and examine those fascinating nude dancing cases involving free speech. . .
 
DivePartner1 once bubbled...

Now, if you don’t mind, scholarship demands that I go back and examine those fascinating nude dancing cases involving free speech. . .

in a mall?:)
 
DivePartner1 once bubbled...

Now, if you don’t mind, scholarship demands that I go back and examine those fascinating nude dancing cases involving free speech. . .

Dammit, I knew I should have studied law......:D
 
I was re-reading these decisions and while I agree that they all seem to go in the same direction (i.e., no First Amendment protection in private properties), none seem to address what malls have become, that is the modern equivalent of the old town's square.

If I remember correctly how the SC struck down the Communication Indecency Act, they used a similar concept. Anyone care to tackle on the case?
 
So do the rest of us get Law 100 credits for following this thread :) Interesting conversation
 

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