LA Times - Hurricane Season to be Very Active

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JDog:
I understand "we need a bigger box" and until model covers the entire earth climatologists will always want a bigger "box". That is just human nature. I just don't like these long term predictions to be used to get headlines,or to be used as scare tactics. And when these predictions change the media never follows up on that story. ("Oh it's going to be lovely this year"- how boring) :( . I take these articles with a great deal of skepticism. Sure 2007 might blow the socks off 2005, but then again like 2006 it may not.
Sorry I couldn't be more tecnical. :)

There's more warmth and thermal energy in the atlantic where hurricanes form which will setup a tendency to strengthen them (the fact that hurricanes pick up strength over warm water is very well known). For any one year there may be a volcano which causes global cooling, there may be an El Nino event which causes wind shear in the atlantic like last year, but the general background is that there will be a larger pool of thermal energy in the Atlantic for hurricanes to draw their strength from.

What happened last year is analogous to climatologists predicting that if you throw a 6-sided die once you'll probably get 3 through 6 rather than a 1 or a 2. Last year we rolled a 1 or a 2. Over the next decade they'll probably be right more often than 50% of the time when they predict a strong hurricane season -- and while they can't be perfect, its foolish to ignore them completely.

(and why is it that the more people use smilies when they think they're being clever, the less they seem to have a clue?)
 
People confuse loaded terms like global warming and climate change with shorter range forcasting such as hurricane predictions. Even Fox News has weather reoports. Same thing really. Each field of climate modeling has its own challenges. If you do modeling with coarse-grid models, hurricanes do not form at all. If your model does not permit the hurricane to remove heat from the ocean the hurricanes that form in the models are unrealistically strong. This stuff is sorting out very quickly.

On the related but not identical subject of Climate Change and Global warming - I think the long awaited (and watered down) UN report - the result of broad scientific consensus - hit a nerve in national media today. Below is the LA Times lead story.

Jim

Dire warming report too soft, scientists say
Some nations lobbied for changes that blunt the study, contributors charge. The U.N. forecast is still bleak.
By Alan Zarembo and Thomas H. Maugh II, Times Staff Writers
April 7, 2007

A new global warming report issued Friday by the United Nations paints a near-apocalyptic vision of Earth's future: hundreds of millions of people short of water, extreme food shortages in Africa, a landscape ravaged by floods and millions of species sentenced to extinction.

Despite its harsh vision, the report was quickly criticized by some scientists who said its findings were watered down at the last minute by governments seeking to deflect calls for action.


"The science got hijacked by the political bureaucrats at the late stage of the game," said John Walsh, a climate expert at the University of Alaska Fairbanks who helped write a chapter on the polar regions.

Even in its softened form, the report outlined devastating effects that will strike all regions of the world and all levels of society. Those without resources to adapt to the changes will suffer the most, according to the study from the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

"It's the poorest of the poor in the world, and this includes poor people even in prosperous societies, who are going to be the worst hit," said Rajendra Pachauri, chairman of the IPCC, which released the report in Brussels.

The report is the second of four scheduled to be issued this year by the U.N., which marshaled more than 2,500 scientists to give their best predictions of the consequences of a few degrees increase in temperature. The first report, released in February, said global warming was irreversible but could be moderated by large-scale societal changes.

That report said with 90% confidence that the warming was caused by humans, and its conclusions were widely accepted because of the years of accumulated scientific data supporting them.

In contrast, the latest report was more controversial because it tackled the more uncertain issues of the precise effects of warming and the ability of humans to adapt to them.

"When you put people into the equation, people who can adapt and respond and change their behavior, it adds another layer of complication," said Gary Yohe, an economist at Wesleyan University who helped write the report.

But the report is also, in a sense, a more pointed indictment of the world's biggest polluters — the industrialized nations — and a more specific identification of those who will suffer.

Thus, some nations lobbied for last-minute changes to the dire predictions. Negotiations led to deleting some timelines for events, as well as some forecasts on how many people would be affected on each continent as global temperatures rose.

An earlier draft, for example, specified that water would become increasingly scarce for up to a billion people in Asia if temperatures rose 3.6 degrees Fahrenheit — a point that previous studies have said is likely to be reached by 2100.

A table outlining how various levels of carbon dioxide emissions corresponded to increasing temperatures and their effects was also removed.

The actions were seen by critics as an attempt to ease the pressure on industrialized nations to reduce their emissions of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases that are gradually warming the planet.

Several scientists vowed afterward that they would never participate in the process again because of the interference.

"Once is enough," said Walsh, who was not present during the negotiations in Brussels but was kept abreast of developments with a steady stream of e-mails from colleagues. "I was receiving hourly reports that grew increasingly frustrated."

The report paints a bleak picture, noting that the early signs of warming are already here.

Spring is arriving earlier, with plants blooming weeks ahead of schedule. In the mountains, runoff begins earlier in the year, shrinking glaciers in the Alps, the Himalayas and the Andes.

Habitats for plants and animals, on land and in the oceans, are shifting toward the poles.

Nineteen of the 20 hottest years on record have occurred since 1980, according to previous studies. The report said that more frequent and more intense heat waves were "very likely" in the future.

Dire warming report too soft, scientists say
April 7 2007



Page 2 of 2 << back 1 2

In some places, warming might seem like a good thing at first.

For example, worldwide food production is expected to increase with the first few degrees of temperature rise. For a time, an expanded fertile zone in the higher latitudes could offset losses in the tropics.


But at a certain point, crops everywhere will suffer as drought spreads. By mid-century, rising temperatures and drying soil will turn tropical forest to savanna in eastern Amazonia, the report predicts.

In North America, snowpack in the West will decline, causing more floods in the winter and reduced flows in the summer, increasing competition for water for crops and people.

California agriculture will be decimated by the loss of water for irrigation, experts have previously said.

Water will come more often around the world in its least welcome forms: storms and floods.

Rising temperatures will reconfigure coastlines around the world as the oceans rise. The tiny islands of the South Pacific and the Asian deltas will be overwhelmed by storm surges.

In the Andes and the Himalayas, melting glaciers will unleash floods and rock avalanches. But within a few decades, as the glaciers and snowpack decline, streams will dwindle, cutting the main water supply to more than a sixth of the world's population.

Between 20% and 30% of the world's species will disappear if temperatures rise 2.7 to 4.5 degrees, the report said.

Africa will suffer the most, with up to a quarter of a billion people running short of water by 2020, and yields from rain-fed crops falling by half in many countries. The continent could spend at least 5% to 10% of its gross domestic product to adapt to rising sea levels, the report said.

"Don't be poor in a hot country, don't live in hurricane alley, watch out about being on the coasts or in the Arctic, and it's a bad idea to be on a high mountain," said Stephen Schneider of Stanford University, one of the scientists who contributed to the report.

The Bush administration quickly made it clear that it would not be stampeded by the report into taking part in the U.N.'s Kyoto Protocol, which seeks to limit emissions of carbon dioxide. The U.S. withdrew from the protocol in 2001, saying it was too expensive and did not impose enough controls on developing nations.

"Each nation sort of defines their regulatory objectives in different ways to achieve the greenhouse reduction outcome that they seek," said Jim Connaughton, chairman of the White House Council on Environmental Quality, during a teleconference Friday from Brussels.

Sharon Hays, associate director of the White House Office of Science and Technology, noted in the same teleconference that "not all projected impacts are negative."

Other governments, such as China, Russia and Saudi Arabia, had already expressed their displeasure with parts of the report by demanding changes &#8212; some of them seemingly minor in the grand scheme of climate change.

Panel member Yohe said that China and Saudi Arabia, for example, objected to a sentence that stated "very high confidence" that many natural systems were already being affected by regional climate changes, arguing that "very" should be removed.

After a long deadlock, U.S. delegates brokered a compromise that removed the reference to confidence levels.

The U.S. delegation opposed a section that said parts of North America could suffer "severe" economic damage from climate change.

Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi said in a prepared statement that political agendas need to be left behind and quick action taken to cut emissions.

"Global warming is already underway, but it is not too late to slow it down and reduce its harmful effects," she said. "We must base our actions on the moral imperative and the scientific record, free of political interference."

Susanne Moser, a research scientist at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colo., said the political changes to the report do not diminish the need for action.

"When you have it this black and white, it is very hard to deny the reality and continue to do nothing," she said. "I don't know how you do that if you have a moral bone in your body."

alan.zarembo@latimes.com

thomas.maugh@latimes.com
 
I heard weather forecasts for a very wet winter here in SoCal due to the El Nino. I disagreed with that forecast because the El Nino formation was very atypical, happening very late in the year. I was right... we are probably going to end the rainy season with the biggest drought ever!

The only time I'm sure about the weather is AFTER it happens.
 
The longer term rainfall models indicate that this year will on average be more typical in the future. I don't like that for many reasons including living in an extreme wildfire danger area against the Angeles National Forest. Local wildlife is also under extreme stress with coyotes learning to scale backyard fences and more spring calls from neighbors with rattlesnakes than I remember as animals expand predation ranges into human spaces.

Global changes in, for example, temperature is almost an abstraction. Its when the changes are mapped out in fine detail, such as rainfall patterns in SoCal - that we see the real impact and might be inclined to act.

A lot of this is being driven of course by the CO2 concentration of the atmosphere which has risen continuously (seasonal average) from 316 ppm in 1959 to over 370 ppm last year. These are instrumental measurements made using standard gas analysis techniques and are more accurate than, for example, a standard nitrox oxygen analyzer. When one opens glass containers sealed before the industrial age (ca. pre-1800) the CO2 concentration in that air is 275 ppm.

The rapid, recent, and astonishing rise in CO2 concentration in the atmosphere is not debatable. They are real numbers that can be measured reproducably anywhere in the world. But does an increase in CO2 imply global warming?

Actually, this is completely noncotroversial and has been for over 100 years. One of the founders of physical chemistry Svante Arrhenius (best known for the simple theory of chmical kinetics) worked out some of this in a paper entitled "On the Influence of Carbonic Acid in the Air on the Temperature of the Ground", Philisophical Magazine, 41, 237-276 (1896). Its all basic physical science. Just like evolution is 19th century biology. People who don't like the implications of evolution, climate change or other bubble-bursting findings will go to great lengths to confuse the public to shape debate and policy to their ends. But, while no citizen in the 21st century will "see" human evolution occur, every one will get to watch climate change. Hang onto your seats.

Jim
 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17997788/site/newsweek/


Live Vote
Is there now permanent momentum behind the battle to fight global warming? * 10619 responses

Yes
30%

No
59%

Not sure
12%
Not a scientific survey.


Why So Gloomy?

By Richard S. Lindzen
Newsweek International


April 16, 2007 issue - Judging from the media in recent months, the debate over global warming is now over. There has been a net warming of the earth over the last century and a half, and our greenhouse gas emissions are contributing at some level. Both of these statements are almost certainly true. What of it? Recently many people have said that the earth is facing a crisis requiring urgent action. This statement has nothing to do with science. There is no compelling evidence that the warming trend we've seen will amount to anything close to catastrophe. What most commentators—and many scientists—seem to miss is that the only thing we can say with certainly about climate is that it changes. The earth is always warming or cooling by as much as a few tenths of a degree a year; periods of constant average temperatures are rare. Looking back on the earth's climate history, it's apparent that there's no such thing as an optimal temperature—a climate at which everything is just right. The current alarm rests on the false assumption not only that we live in a perfect world, temperaturewise, but also that our warming forecasts for the year 2040 are somehow more reliable than the weatherman's forecast for next week.

A warmer climate could prove to be more beneficial than the one we have now. Much of the alarm over climate change is based on ignorance of what is normal for weather and climate. There is no evidence, for instance, that extreme weather events are increasing in any systematic way, according to scientists at the U.S. National Hurricane Center, the World Meteorological Organization and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (which released the second part of this year's report earlier this month). Indeed, meteorological theory holds that, outside the tropics, weather in a warming world should be less variable, which might be a good thing.

In many other respects, the ill effects of warming are overblown. Sea levels, for example, have been increasing since the end of the last ice age. When you look at recent centuries in perspective, ignoring short-term fluctuations, the rate of sea-level rise has been relatively uniform (less than a couple of millimeters a year). There's even some evidence that the rate was higher in the first half of the twentieth century than in the second half. Overall, the risk of sea-level rise from global warming is less at almost any given location than that from other causes, such as tectonic motions of the earth's surface.

Many of the most alarming studies rely on long-range predictions using inherently untrustworthy climate models, similar to those that cannot accurately forecast the weather a week from now. Interpretations of these studies rarely consider that the impact of carbon on temperature goes down—not up—the more carbon accumulates in the atmosphere. Even if emissions were the sole cause of the recent temperature rise—a dubious proposition—future increases wouldn't be as steep as the climb in emissions.

Indeed, one overlooked mystery is why temperatures are not already higher. Various models predict that a doubling of CO2 in the atmosphere will raise the world's average temperature by as little as 1.5 degrees Celsius or as much as 4.5 degrees. The important thing about doubled CO2 (or any other greenhouse gas) is its "forcing"—its contribution to warming. At present, the greenhouse forcing is already about three-quarters of what one would get from a doubling of CO2. But average temperatures rose only about 0.6 degrees since the beginning of the industrial era, and the change hasn't been uniform—warming has largely occurred during the periods from 1919 to 1940 and from 1976 to 1998, with cooling in between. Researchers have been unable to explain this discrepancy.

Modelers claim to have simulated the warming and cooling that occurred before 1976 by choosing among various guesses as to what effect poorly observed volcanoes and unmeasured output from the sun have had. These factors, they claim, don't explain the warming of about 0.4 degrees C between 1976 and 1998. Climate modelers assume the cause must be greenhouse-gas emissions because they have no other explanation. This is a poor substitute for evidence, and simulation hardly constitutes explanation. Ten years ago climate modelers also couldn't account for the warming that occurred from about 1050 to 1300. They tried to expunge the medieval warm period from the observational record—an effort that is now generally discredited. The models have also severely underestimated short-term variability El Niño and the Intraseasonal Oscillation. Such phenomena illustrate the ability of the complex and turbulent climate system to vary significantly with no external cause whatever, and to do so over many years, even centuries.

Is there any point in pretending that CO2 increases will be catastrophic? Or could they be modest and on balance beneficial? India has warmed during the second half of the 20th century, and agricultural output has increased greatly. Infectious diseases like malaria are a matter not so much of temperature as poverty and public-health policies (like eliminating DDT). Exposure to cold is generally found to be both more dangerous and less comfortable.

Moreover, actions taken thus far to reduce emissions have already had negative consequences without improving our ability to adapt to climate change. An emphasis on ethanol, for instance, has led to angry protests against corn-price increases in Mexico, and forest clearing and habitat destruction in Southeast Asia. Carbon caps are likely to lead to increased prices, as well as corruption associated with permit trading. (Enron was a leading lobbyist for Kyoto because it had hoped to capitalize on emissions trading.) The alleged solutions have more potential for catastrophe than the putative problem. The conclusion of the late climate scientist Roger Revelle—Al Gore's supposed mentor—is worth pondering: the evidence for global warming thus far doesn't warrant any action unless it is justifiable on grounds that have nothing to do with climate.

Lindzen is the Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Meteorology at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. His research has always been funded exclusively by the U.S. government. He receives no funding from any energy companies.

© 2007 Newsweek, Inc.

J-Dog's disclaimer: I cannot defend myself merely with words, I cannot convert my emotions and gut feelings into text. My excuse is: "Because I only have a high school education". That does not however mean I can't read or form an opinion.

LAJim- I am not disputing the earth is changing, 5 billion years ago it looked nothing like today, in the distant future billions of years from now as the sun expands and envelops us, the earth will no longer exist. As per my post #7 I am having issues with "the Sky is falling" articles, and the tone that is being set with regards to global warming. I am 46 and I remember in the 70's the when the fear of the decade was "the Ice Age is coming". The 80's brought "the Ozone hole". The 90's was, and still is to some extent "El Nino, El Nino, El Nino". So here we sit in the begining of the 21st century and battle cry is, not just global warming, but Global Warming because of......Mankind. What is it going to be 10-20 years from now? Maybe this is natures way of culling the herd, what are we up to now 8 billion people? Losing 4-5 billion people might not be such a bad thing.

lamont- here you go smart guy-- just for you :mooner:
:rofl3:
:rofl3:
Your profile is pretty cute too:blinking: -- "logged dives. None- not certified"
-- who is that in your profile picture with 15K in dive gear?:crafty:

:popcorn::popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
:popcorn::popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
 
JDog:

If you want to copy and paste some really purulent propoganda on climate change or any other topic may I suggest Mr. Steven Milloy of Junkscience.com. He's my favorite spinmeister for everything from the benefits of drinking water full of arsenic to the pleasure of inhaling second-hand smoke.

You're just posting stuff about Richard Lindzen - who has cast himself as the "aging contrarian" on the "global warming debate". He doesn't quite stand alone but he's pretty close. The media likes every issue to have two sides (why not six?) and everyone knows Lindzen's good for a quote.

Jim
 
JDog:
April 16, 2007 issue - Judging from the media in recent months, the debate over global warming is now over. There has been a net warming of the earth over the last century and a half, and our greenhouse gas emissions are contributing at some level. Both of these statements are almost certainly true. What of it? Recently many people have said that the earth is facing a crisis requiring urgent action. This statement has nothing to do with science. There is no compelling evidence that the warming trend we've seen will amount to anything close to catastrophe.

Coming out of the most recent ice age we saw changes of a degree or two over the course of 1,000s of years. The climate change we're discussing now on the order of 5 degrees or more over 100 years is the kind of rate of change in the climate that is associated with events like the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum or the Cretaceous-Tertiary event which are catastrophic and are found associated with delineations of the ends of geological Periods or Eras.

So yes, there is geological evidence to be very concerned about the scale of what is going on right now.

What most commentators—and many scientists—seem to miss is that the only thing we can say with certainly about climate is that it changes. The earth is always warming or cooling by as much as a few tenths of a degree a year; periods of constant average temperatures are rare. Looking back on the earth's climate history, it's apparent that there's no such thing as an optimal temperature—a climate at which everything is just right. The current alarm rests on the false assumption not only that we live in a perfect world, temperaturewise, but also that our warming forecasts for the year 2040 are somehow more reliable than the weatherman's forecast for next week.

For the past 400,000 years we've been in a period of relative stability with the Earth's climate oscillating between ice ages and temperatures equivalent to pre-industrial climate due to natural cycles in the solar system.

Carbon_Dioxide_400kyr.png


Most of the CO2 and methane had been trapped in methane clathrates, oil, coal, natural gas, etc, and we're releasing all of that carbon and geologically turning the clock back very rapidly.

A warmer climate could prove to be more beneficial than the one we have now.

You'll notice this is completely unsubstantiated. And while 50,000 years from now evolution will definitely adapt and the biosphere will rebound and biodiversity will rebound (just like it has from all other mass extinction events), this is the very long view, not the view of our lifetimes, or our children's or theirs, etc.

Much of the alarm over climate change is based on ignorance of what is normal for weather and climate. There is no evidence, for instance, that extreme weather events are increasing in any systematic way, according to scientists at the U.S. National Hurricane Center, the World Meteorological Organization and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (which released the second part of this year's report earlier this month). Indeed, meteorological theory holds that, outside the tropics, weather in a warming world should be less variable, which might be a good thing.

or might be bad, like all the other climatologists on the planet and the geological record suggests.

In many other respects, the ill effects of warming are overblown. Sea levels, for example, have been increasing since the end of the last ice age. When you look at recent centuries in perspective, ignoring short-term fluctuations, the rate of sea-level rise has been relatively uniform (less than a couple of millimeters a year). There's even some evidence that the rate was higher in the first half of the twentieth century than in the second half. Overall, the risk of sea-level rise from global warming is less at almost any given location than that from other causes, such as tectonic motions of the earth's surface.

That won't be the case if we lose a major chunk of the Earth's ice cover, and if we do lose a chunk of the ice cover, then we also lose cooling due to the change in albedo of the planet and the planet will warm more.

Many of the most alarming studies rely on long-range predictions using inherently untrustworthy climate models, similar to those that cannot accurately forecast the weather a week from now. Interpretations of these studies rarely consider that the impact of carbon on temperature goes down—not up—the more carbon accumulates in the atmosphere. Even if emissions were the sole cause of the recent temperature rise—a dubious proposition—future increases wouldn't be as steep as the climb in emissions.

There's nothing to substantiate that emissions being the cause of recent temperature rises are "dubious" here when you can work out the back of the evelope math for yourself to determine that humans are outputting enough of the biosphere's carbon content every year to explain the Keeling curve.

Indeed, one overlooked mystery is why temperatures are not already higher. Various models predict that a doubling of CO2 in the atmosphere will raise the world's average temperature by as little as 1.5 degrees Celsius or as much as 4.5 degrees. The important thing about doubled CO2 (or any other greenhouse gas) is its "forcing"—its contribution to warming. At present, the greenhouse forcing is already about three-quarters of what one would get from a doubling of CO2. But average temperatures rose only about 0.6 degrees since the beginning of the industrial era, and the change hasn't been uniform—warming has largely occurred during the periods from 1919 to 1940 and from 1976 to 1998, with cooling in between. Researchers have been unable to explain this discrepancy.

Part of the problem is that it takes about 50 years for the climate to respond to changes in CO2 content. Because of the positive feedback loops you have to wait for the permafrost to melt and more GHGs to be released and more warming to occur which reduces the planet's albedo which causes more warming, etc until the climate discovers the new steady state equilibrium. Since we are currently actively forcing the climate we would have to halt the rise in CO2 in the atmosphere by reducing emissions and then wait 50 years to see what the response actually is.

We also do know what caused the early 20th century warming and cooling, and that it was not anthropogenic and was due to volcanism and solar forcing, but that the rise post 1978 is due to anthropogenic GHGs. I've posted that reference before.

Modelers claim to have simulated the warming and cooling that occurred before 1976 by choosing among various guesses as to what effect poorly observed volcanoes and unmeasured output from the sun have had. These factors, they claim, don't explain the warming of about 0.4 degrees C between 1976 and 1998. Climate modelers assume the cause must be greenhouse-gas emissions because they have no other explanation. This is a poor substitute for evidence, and simulation hardly constitutes explanation. Ten years ago climate modelers also couldn't account for the warming that occurred from about 1050 to 1300. They tried to expunge the medieval warm period from the observational record—an effort that is now generally discredited. The models have also severely underestimated short-term variability El Niño and the Intraseasonal Oscillation. Such phenomena illustrate the ability of the complex and turbulent climate system to vary significantly with no external cause whatever, and to do so over many years, even centuries.

No, the models can be confirmed by having them predict past climate, which are tests that we know the answers for, and checking that they work. For example, it is known what the effect pinatubo's eruption had on the climate after 1991 and they can check that their models produce the same predictions when they introduce pinatubo as an event. This isn't a "poor substitute for evidence" it is testing that the underlying physics of the models are correct.

Is there any point in pretending that CO2 increases will be catastrophic? Or could they be modest and on balance beneficial? India has warmed during the second half of the 20th century, and agricultural output has increased greatly. Infectious diseases like malaria are a matter not so much of temperature as poverty and public-health policies (like eliminating DDT). Exposure to cold is generally found to be both more dangerous and less comfortable.

India is cherry-picked here as the one nation which so far has had better climate and fewer cyclones due to global warming.

Moreover, actions taken thus far to reduce emissions have already had negative consequences without improving our ability to adapt to climate change. An emphasis on ethanol, for instance, has led to angry protests against corn-price increases in Mexico, and forest clearing and habitat destruction in Southeast Asia. Carbon caps are likely to lead to increased prices, as well as corruption associated with permit trading. (Enron was a leading lobbyist for Kyoto because it had hoped to capitalize on emissions trading.) The alleged solutions have more potential for catastrophe than the putative problem. The conclusion of the late climate scientist Roger Revelle—Al Gore's supposed mentor—is worth pondering: the evidence for global warming thus far doesn't warrant any action unless it is justifiable on grounds that have nothing to do with climate.

That really doesn't sound so bad to me. Shaving a percent off of global GNP growth for 20 years would be worth it to avoid melting the ice caps.
 
Cherry picking data has been common among opponents of climate science. The thickness of the center of Greenland icepack has been increasing. Last year this was a big deal with websites, blogs, and commentators all pointing to that as evidence against climate change -- until it was pointed out that increased snowfall in the center of Greenland was one of the predicitions of the climate models. As the center of the Greenland ice shelf thickens, the ice pack is on average melting several times faster than anyone thought would happen a few years ago.

Jim
 

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