Kicked out of Nitrox Class!!

[plsdiver4377]

jray once bubbled...
I'm shocked that a LDS would kick someone out of a class for not buying their equipment from them. I would find another dive shop right away. Eventually with an attitude like that the shop you went to will be out of business anyway.

I purchase most of my equipment from my LDS. They seem to have recognized that the internet exists and are fairly competitive with their prices. I recently bought a regulator setup for not much more than LP was charging for the same stuff and I get the benefit of a warranty and a pool to try it out in. It also left me with a warm fuzzy feeling knowing I supported my local economy. I also purchased mask and fins there just after getting my OW card and feel like I got ripped after checking online prices. Knowing what I know now I would have bargained a little harder on that purchase. When I purchased my wetsuit the shop let me try on anything I wanted and they gave me lots of advice on fit, etc. It would have been wrong in my opinion to make this purchase online just to save a few dollars.

On the other hand I purchased my BC online. This was before I had a good relationship with the shop owners and figured out I did not have to pay full retail for stuff there. I compared the price online and thought it was a no-brainer to get it that way. The shop knows I did not purchase it from them and they don't seem to care.

I had a discussion with one of the owners about how the store was doing and found out it's been a tough couple of years because people just aren't making discretionary purchases right now.

Just my 2 cents.

One of the dive shops I frequent is much like the one you do busines with. He offers me fair prices (not as low as LP but by the time you figure shipping within 20-30 dollars) so I do quite a bit of my business there. Sometimes the prices are actually the same or below LP. I don't mind paying a little more for good service, especially when he tells me point blank that because I have to special order something I would be better off buying it from LP.

That kind of attitude means that I will come back to buy more from them especially when they treat me with honesty.

Jim

 

[Braunbehrens]

ElectricZombie once bubbled...
I've taught a Basic class with one person in it. They did not buy 1 piece of gear from the shop where I teach. After I was paid my fee, the shop was in the red by quite a bit.

I think shops should be upfront about the whole thing. Just tell your customers who sign up for a class or who come in for fills what the situation is. Better yet, put up a sign.

"Do you like this store? We lose money on fills and classes. If you like this store, support us by buying your equipment here. Thank you."

 

[MikeFerrara]

scuberd once bubbled...


hey,
I've never knowingly mislead another diver in any way at all. I've never stolen someone's money or lied to them. I've never had to pull a victim out of the water (except in training). Granted I don't yet work in the industry, but I volenteer. I hope as you see that as something right.


p.s. anyone want to hire a naui DM, AI?

What you described is a good person in diving. There are lots of good things about diving. The industry, though, isn't doing so good though. I think it's goint to get worse before it gets better too.

 

[Waterlover]

Rick Murchison once bubbled...

I'll climb on my soapbox again... there must be a paradigm shift in the dive industry. Up 'til now, the rent at the LDS has been paid with clothing-store like margins on dive gear, while training and air fills are provided at cost or even at a loss. This won't work much longer, as internet "stores" who are drop-shipping from warehouses at 5 to 10 points - basically the same thing the LDS pays before any overhead - proliferate and customers just can't stand to pass up the price difference. LDS's must reduce inventory, make training profitable and learn to charge for what they provide now as "part of the sale" - servicing equipment, consulting on equipment selection etc. They must become LDTF's - Local Dive Training Facilities. This will take some deep pockets and some hard times as those who drag their feet gradually fail, forcing customers over to the higher priced training facilities.
Now is not the best time to be in the dive business as a shop owner.
... climbs down off soapbox ...
Rick

Rick,
Very well put. The sooner the dive shops realize they have to increase profit margins on things that can't be bought on the internet, the better off they will be. I see it to often they give away such services. They need to learn to charge for them. I wish more instructors and shop owner had your insight.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...


I think shops should be upfront about the whole thing. Just tell your customers who sign up for a class or who come in for fills what the situation is. Better yet, put up a sign.

"Do you like this store? We lose money on fills and classes. If you like this store, support us by buying your equipment here. Thank you."

Good point! but it makes way too much sense to ever be popular

 

[MikeFerrara]

Waterlover once bubbled...




Rick,
Very well put. The sooner the dive shops realize they have to increase profit margins on things that can't be bought on the internet, the better off they will be. I see it to often they give away such services. They need to learn to charge for them. I wish more instructors and shop owner had your insight.

Some of us do but when we raise training prices and were the only ones we just don't sell classes.

Lower the price and they will come...

 

[Groundhog246]

Scubaroo once bubbled...
No doubt the dive shop has the legal right to do what they did, but their credibility just took a nosedive.

I doubt they do have the right. I don't recall the name of the legislation, but it's called "tied selling" when you require purchse of a particular product or service inorder to purchase another product or service. I believe it's covered under either the Sherman or Clayton acts in the US. It's covered under "The Competition Act" in Canada. In short it is illegal to "tie" the selling of one product to another. For example, your car dealer can't refuse a warranty repair because you got your oil changed somewhere else (they can require proof you got it changed per the maintenance schedule).
I have no doubt that a complaint to the proper local authorities would lead to the store being disciplined (fined).

 

[wrongkey]

You guys who have an LDS should be peeved at the manufactureres, and the restrictions they impose upon you, and not your customers. They don't have any duty to submit to the results of conduct from manufacturers that is, or should be, illegal because of it's anticompetitive nature.

Training should be well compensated. As an example, a friend recently needed recommendations about dive training. My question to him was, "do you want to get a card so you have permission to dive on a vacation, or do you really want to learn how to do it, and do you want to strive to be good at it." He wanted the second. He said if he wanted to do it at all, he wanted to do it really well. Fine. That changes the recommendations. I made some, and I told him he should expect to pay one helluva lot more than whatever he saw in any bargain ad in any dive shop he might walk in to. He was perfectly fine with that. I told him I'd help him find good gear for a good price, and he's good with that. Some of it will be internet, because the LDS can't be competitive, and there is no service they can provide in connection with the transaction. Some of it will be LDS, because he has to have a good fit, and that's a service they perform. Folks need to charge for what they bring to the table. The current LDS model, duly interfered with and controlled by manufacturers, screws that up.

LDS's shouldn't have to give training away. What's wrong with wanting a fair price for everything?

Undercompensated training, overcompensated gear. One bad business model.

 

[Groundhog246]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Look, you people have a right to buy where you want and a shop has the right to teach who they want. They gave the money back didn't they?

Legally speaking, NO. In retail terms your course is a "product" and you don't have the legal right to refuse to sell that "product" to anyone (exception for gear, you CAN require a C card, same as a card renatl company can require proof you have a drivers license). Now, you can ask them to establish they're physically fit enough, require a medical clearance, etc., but you can't unilaterally refuse to provide the course.

 

[MikeFerrara]

wrongkey,

What you say is very true. The consumer does have one responsibility though, IMO. And that's to be educated about more than just price. IMO, they should spend their money not only wisely but responsibly. I believe there are manufacturers who have done far more damage than others. It would serve us all in the long run to stop rewarding them for their behavior. The frustrating thing about this for the LDS (other than going broke) is all the divers who blame the shops for the prices. If I had a nickle for every time I have read here some one voicing the opinion that the LDS was somehow trying to cheat folks, I would have it made. Yet, they continue to reward the manufacturers who arew largely the architects of the situation. They buy the same stuff from LP and just put the squize on the shop. You can't buy the tuna and blame the fisherman for the dead dolphins.