Just me or is Scuba Diving Mag Flat Wrong!

[RJP]

In retrospect, I should have included these APSA recommendations in the sidebar. Thanks for your feedback.

Nick

Erratum to be published in January issue?

 

[RussR]

I am glad that the cenotes are not for cave trained divers only- otherwise I would have missed out on one of the most amazing dives to date.

We went to Chac Mool with a group of 5 - 2 guides and three divers. From my recollection there was only one period of a minute or so when you are in an overhead environment (I don't believe it was 130 feet to the surface at any point but could be wrong).

I recommend that divers be checked out for proper buoyancy prior to diving these caverns, but I disagree that you need to be cave certified to do these guided dives

 

[Bretagus]

I certainly think at least a sidebar should have been included. As mentioned, the impact of tanks bashing the cave is a serious one, not to mention the fact that my cenote tour definitely took a liberal view of the "within the light zone"! An amazing experience, but you gotta be prepared.

 

[NudeDiver]

No where in the article does it "suggest" one NOT do these dives unless you have training for the overhead environment nor is there any statement that you CAN'T do them unless you are with a qualified guide.

They didn't suggest you take an OW course or turn your air supply on before getting in the water either. Some things are implied. All (?) divers are trained to dive within their limits. Even the PADI OW course - at least the one I took - mentioned not to dive in overhead environments without the proper training.

I don't think it's asking too much of divers to think a little for themselves - at least some of the time.

 

[NudeDiver]

A few weeks ago, I saw a cave diver literally chase (screaming and yelling at the surface)...

Nothing gets a one-finger salute faster than yelling and screaming at me. Might even get you more if you get in my face about it.

This yeller and screamer would have probably been a whole lot more effective in communicating his message had he explained the danger and risk of death to the intruders. If that didn't work, a threat to inform authorities about their illegal diving might have helped. If they were really beginners, odds are good that they wouldn't know he was making up the part about it being illegal (assuming of course, that he was). Even if yelling and screaming was successful in scaring them off, odds are good they will just come back when he is not there. Threats of calling authorities and notice of risk of death are much more likely to be long-lasting.

 

[ItsBruce]

Dos Ojos was one of my top four dives ever (one being my very first and one was not even on scuba). I'm glad that all that was required was a certified guide and a very good briefing (though the guide did test that I was otherwise competent). Throughout the dive I kept thinking to myself: "Please, Dear Lord, don't let me misjudge and bump into anything."

 

[Tigerman]

Well, Tigerman, have you done the cenote tours? I can guarantee you that there are times when the divers are at least 130 feet from the surface, combined depth and penetration.

Yes I have and no I dont think there was as much as 130 feet to the surface in whats marked as cavern in Chak Mool altleast and im 100% sure I could have made it to the surface without air. Then again Im also comfortable sharing air if I should be short on it so it wouldnt be an option as that was the only place I went diving in Mexico where they required a buddy. Since I didnt have one mine was also the guide, who hopefully wouldnt panic if I asked for some :tongue2:
We where also briefed on gas management (thirds), lines that was laid and such things prior to the dive. When I booked the trip before I also asked what experience levels they requested that people had before doing the cenotes and IIRC the answer was they recommended AOW or higher. Dont remember if they mentioned any number of dives.

I can of course not speak for how every op does every possible cenote though. Theres probably some differences between ops and guides on these dives as any other location..

 

[cavew0man]

Nothing gets a one-finger salute faster than yelling and screaming at me. Might even get you more if you get in my face about it.

This yeller and screamer would have probably been a whole lot more effective in communicating his message had he explained the danger and risk of death to the intruders. If that didn't work, a threat to inform authorities about their illegal diving might have helped. If they were really beginners, odds are good that they wouldn't know he was making up the part about it being illegal (assuming of course, that he was). Even if yelling and screaming was successful in scaring them off, odds are good they will just come back when he is not there. Threats of calling authorities and notice of risk of death are much more likely to be long-lasting.

Wholeheartedly agreed on the screamer - not a very good representative of the community, either.

 

[Peter Guy]

Mr. Lucey,

THANK YOU very much for your response. As the person who started this thread I'm VERY impressed that it got your attention -- and even more impressed it got it as quickly as it did.

Slightly less than 2 years ago I had the absolute pleasure to have two days of guided tours in the Caverns of Dos Ojos, Car Wash and Gran Cenote. I just looked at what I wrote in my notes after my first dive "First Cenote Dive doing the West Eye -- absolutely fabulous!"

I am now "Full Cave" but I am, and always will be, a "line following cave tourist" because I live very far from ANY caves. However, I must confess I absolutely love them.

I encourage anyone who has the skills to take a tour to do so and I congratulate your magazine for highlighting them.

Of course, in retrospect, there should have been a BIG caveat that they are not "beginner" dives -- although, of course, they really ARE "beginner" dives -- AS LONG AS you are able to control where you are in the water column. In addition, there as you wrote, there should have been a note that unless you have some type of Cave (Cavern) cert, you MUST not attempt to do these dives except as a "line following, cave tourist" in the company of a "trained expert" -- someone who is an OW Instructor AND "Full Cave" and diving in "full cave gear."

Again, Thank You for your quick and appropriate response.

 

[Cave Bum]

I am the author of the article in question. The Top 10 Dives - Riviera Maya article is one of our monthly, templated articles that highlights 10 dive sites in various destinations around the world. As with other articles in our magazine, it is presumed you have the proper training necessary to participate in the diving activities we write about.

You clearly stated "Level=Beginner". Additionally, you mentioned nothing about guides. I reject your backpeddling here.

As a recreational diving magazine, the dive site descriptions in this particular article pertain to diving within ambient light sources, in keeping with APSA regulations, which also advocate the four divers per guide, rule of thirds, no deco and no deeper than 70 feet. In retrospect, I should have included these APSA recommendations in the sidebar. Thanks for your feedback.

Nick

As I have frequently aurgued with local venues in North Florida, the dive site/guide/land owner is NOT a certification agency and DOES NOT have the right to excuse divers from the limits of their certification. NO DIVING IN THE OVERHEAD UNLESS PROPERLY TRAINED AND CERTIFIED.

I didnt say untrained divers should go into the clearly signed cave zones, did I?


200 feet is waay to far imo, as is 130.. 50-60 shouldnt be and in worst case you are (should be) required to have a buddy that can share air with you - Something that shouldnt be an issue in the first place wherever you are.

Ever try to share air on a short hose in a lights out condition? Ever try to even find your buddy under those conditions? Lights out, even in a cavern, is lights out. You can see the entrance but you can't see the line or your buddy.

How are these tours different than a "trust me" dive? Sounds as if they allow you to do the dives without the training, or am I off here?

No, sounds like that to me too and I've heard reports of 'guided dives' in Mexico in the overhead with divers not trained for the overhead. Here in North Florida we are allowed to take guided dives one level above their current highest certification -ie- a cavern cert we can take on a guided into-to-cave dive (3rds on singles, 6ths on doubles, gold line, no deco).

I am glad that the cenotes are not for cave trained divers only- otherwise I would have missed out on one of the most amazing dives to date.

Then take a cavern course!

Nothing gets a one-finger salute faster than yelling and screaming at me. Might even get you more if you get in my face about it.

People that go in the caves untrained know they are violating the rules. They are not there by accident. They sneak lights into springs where no lights are allowed for divers without cave or cavern certification. If you get dragged out of a cave when you're caught cheating what do you expect?

Dos Ojos was one of my top four dives ever (one being my very first and one was not even on scuba). I'm glad that all that was required was a certified guide and a very good briefing (though the guide did test that I was otherwise competent). Throughout the dive I kept thinking to myself: "Please, Dear Lord, don't let me misjudge and bump into anything."

Again I say, if you want to do these types of dives, GET A CAVERN CERTIFICATION.