Just me or is Scuba Diving Mag Flat Wrong!

[Peter Guy]

Cave Bum, I think you have done Mr. Lucey a disservice with your post. Of course it would have been MUCH better had the appropriate information been in the article -- which is what he said. He admitted there was a mistake -- why then pile on?

It is clear you do not believe in guided Cavern Dives, but you wrote (apparently with approval):

Here in North Florida we are allowed to take guided dives one level above their current highest certification

Pray tell, how is that different from a guided Cavern tour done by a qualified guide (in Mexico to be a qualified guide you must be at least an OWSI, full cave and have demonstrated your understanding of the guidelines regarding the tours -- at least that's my understanding)?

The guided diver must be a certified OW diver (at a minimum). My understanding is that to take Cavern, you must be a certified OW diver (at a minimum). Isn't that just diving "one level" above your certification under the supervision of an appropriate guide?

By the way, how is taking a guided tour any different from doing your first Cavern dive in your Cavern class. In both cases, you've not been in the overhead before, you are under the direct supervision of a pro and both are, by definition, "trust me dives" because in neither case do you have any experience in that environment.

 

[Cave Bum]

Cave Bum, I think you have done Mr. Lucey a disservice with your post. Of course it would have been MUCH better had the appropriate information been in the article -- which is what he said. He admitted there was a mistake -- why then pile on?

I'm sorry, but I do not believe the picture he's trying to paint, that this was just our normal article and the readers misunderstood. Go back and read his reply. He didn't say he made a mistake, he said he should have added an additional sidebar but that all the information was accurate. I disagree. I'm saying he mis-spoke and should say so.

It is clear you do not believe in guided Cavern Dives, but you wrote (apparently with approval): Pray tell, how is that different from a guided Cavern tour done by a qualified guide (in Mexico to be a qualified guide you must be at least an OWSI, full cave and have demonstrated your understanding of the guidelines regarding the tours -- at least that's my understanding)?

I agree with guided dives. I don't agree with taking OW certified divers on full cave guided dives. I take my OW students on a guided cavern dive AFTER THEY COMPLETE THE OW COURSE as a graduation dive but I do it to all the standards. I run a reel, they each have 2 lights, we are always in sight of the entrance. However I see other OW instructors who are not cave certified let alone cave instructors with students and even OW certified divers in the cavern with no guide line, no backup lights and back behind a wall where they can't see the exit. This sends the wrong message to uncertified divers. They think "If I can do this hear why can't I do this at this little hole I found out in the woods?"

The guided diver must be a certified OW diver (at a minimum). My understanding is that to take Cavern, you must be a certified OW diver (at a minimum). Isn't that just diving "one level" above your certification under the supervision of an appropriate guide?

You have to be Advanced OW and be at least 18 yrs old. If it's just in the cavern zone that these guided dives are going in I don't have a problem with that but the whole thread seemed to be saying that these folks are being taken into the cave. There is a difference between "Cave" and "Cavern" in diving terminology. If OW divers are being guided in the cave (not the cavern zone) I think there is a great risk.

By the way, how is taking a guided tour any different from doing your first Cavern dive in your Cavern class. In both cases, you've not been in the overhead before, you are under the direct supervision of a pro and both are, by definition, "trust me dives" because in neither case do you have any experience in that environment.

The first thing we do in class is set up a line course on land and practice line following and closed eyes line following. The next thing is to set up a line course in open water. They don't get to follow a line in the cavern until they have mastered those skills outside the cavern. One of the slides in my powerpoint when I'm teaching this class is "This is not a 'Trust Me' dive". You have to verify everything, line placement, distance, being sight of the exit." If they are giving a mini-cavern class as part of the dive briefing it would help.

 

[Peter Guy]

Cave Bum -- I think we actually agree then on the "appropriateness" of guided Cavern dives -- PROVIDED the guide meets the standards set for guiding. I don't know if there is any overall "agreement" (standard if you will) regarding Cavern Tours in Florida. It is my understanding that there is such an agreement (standard) for guided Cavern tours in Mexico (as I described earlier).

Where I believe the article went wrong (and apparently Mr. Lucey agrees) is that it is not stated anywhere in the article that:

a. The dives are ONLY in the Cavern Zone;

b. A non-certified Cavern/Cave diver may not go in without a "certified" guide; and

c. These are "beginner" dives ONLY in the sense that they are, in fact, very easy.

Instead of "Beginner" as the Classification -- each Cavern description should have been: Only permitted with a certified guide

 

[Scared Silly]

Instead of "Beginner" as the Classification -- each Cavern description should have been: Only permitted with a certified guide

Damn even a cave diver should have a guide - okay so you want to support the locals. I understand.

I think you meant - Classification -- Cavern certified or with a qualified guide.


BTW Peter you should write a letter to the editor with your concerns. Hopefully Mr. Lucy will then address it in print.

For the most part I have quit reading the main stream rags like Scuba Diving and Sport Diving. They just do not hold much in terms of quality. They used to.

 

[ianr33]

Two divers died yesterday in a Cave in Florida.

The Deco Stop
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ac...d-school-sink-aka-waynes-world-hudson-fl.html

Apparently one of them had no cave or even cavern training. Even if that turns out to not be the case it seems they were way beyond their training and experience level

This happens all too often. Thats why the cave divers in this thread are not amused at Rodales suggesting Beginner divers "not go home" before venturing into an overhead environment.

 

[Cave Bum]

Two divers died yesterday in a Cave in Florida.

The Deco Stop
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ac...d-school-sink-aka-waynes-world-hudson-fl.html

Apparently one of them had no cave or even cavern training. Even if that turns out to not be the case it seems they were way beyond their training and experience level

This happens all too often. Thats why the cave divers in this thread are not amused at Rodales suggesting Beginner divers "not go home" before venturing into an overhead environment.

Thanks, ianr33 for posting that. I was debating if I should bring that up in this thread. I wasn't looking to 'spike the ball' so to speak but this was exactly the point.

WHILE WE WERE TYPING THESE RESPONSES IN THIS THREAD THIS HAPPENED.

Cave Divers' Deaths In Pasco Highlight Risks Of Sport

This is devastating to all concerned. The families, the friends, the recovery divers and to the entire cave diving community. Many divers in this community knew one or both of these divers.

The worst thing is this was preventable. One diver was 'Intro to Cave' level and the other was 'Open Water'. This was apparently a 'sneak' dive into a site owned by the National Speleological Society Cave Diving Section (NSS-CDS), a very advanced site that requires proof of at least 100 safe cave dives in addition to full cave certification and at least one member of the team that has dove the site before in order to get permission to dive there. But these divers thought they were good enough to handle this site. One victim was found only 50 feet from the surface. 50 feet!

This is what we are trying to protect against. We don't want the open water community to think they have the skills to sneak in and try a cave dive. Irresponsible articles like the one this thread is about is one of the main places open water divers get this impression.

Be safe and have fun in the water, but please, stay out of the caves unless properly trained or you're with an approved guide.

Bruce Bosshardt
Cave Dive Central

 

[JeffG]

It is what it is.

I was just in Mexico and at the dive shop at my resort there was a parade of OW divers heading to the cenotes.

Sorry...Not "Scuba Diving Mag's" fault.

and personally I wouldn't of had a problem having my partner do the dive (and she has 30 dives) and neither would the shop.