Just how often does "undeserved" DCS occur?

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Scubabunny-about what you wrote-

about first paragraph- Third hand dosen't count :) , but seriousely- the fact that he had a chamber ride, dosent nessaserily mean he had a DCS (it means it was suspected he had it). If you can get any more details about the incident I would really apreciate it.

About second paragraph- There is something to it. I know about several issues regarding it, none of them I can express in english. I think it is a very good subject that deserves it's own thread.
 
Dear Readers:

Yes, DCS susceptibility is variable from person to person. It is observable in controlled, laboratory experiements, and is not a myth.

This concept was utilized by the US Army Air Force during WW II to select crews for high altitude bombing airplanes. This difference in susceptibility was found to hold from day to day and be of operational value.

In a more recent study publish this January in Aviation, Space and Environmental Medicine (Vol 73, number 1, pp 22-27) is an article by J. Dervay and M. Powell (aka Dr Deco) concerning exercise and duration of DCS risk. In this study, 20 individuals exercised and were then depressurized to altitude. Gas bubble formation was measured with a Doppler bubble detector. No subject got the bends, but ten produced bubbles. Curiously, under the conditions of the test (three different times of exercise), ten of the subjects NEVER produced bubbles. It would seem that some individuals are definitely more resistant. The reason for this resistance is not known.

Dr Deco :doctor:
 
Hey doc,

What kind of controls were used with those individuals? I mean things like were they of equal health, physical fitness, body fat, hydration, age, sex, etc.? The fat content is a biggie as nitrogen doesn't like coming out of fat very well. All things would have to be "equal" among those tested, I would suspect -- which can't happen very easily.

Any thoughts?

Mike
 
Dear Yooper:

These individuals were similar in the usual aspects of age, height, body fat, etc. It did vary to some degree, but these factors did not correlate with bubble formation in this study.

Certainly there was some difference somewhere, but I suspect it was on the biochemical level. There might be different concentrations of biomacromolecules in their tissue fluids that will influence the surface tension. This in turn will affect the number of micronuclei (in a large population of nuclei) that will grow when one is depressurized (= determine the "Laplace cutoff").

I am certainly interested in knowing what is occurring myself. While I have ideas, I do not have any concrete proof at the moment.

Dr Deco
 
Dear Liquid:

There is currently nothing on the Web of which I am aware concerning this topic or paper. :shaking:

Dr Deco :doctor:
 
I don't mean to scare anyone, but I have to differ with some of the posting I have read here. Yes, a hit of DCS can happen to a well, healthily, young person who follows and very conservative dive profile. How do I know it happen to me. I was following an ULTRA-CONSERVATIVE profile while being well hydrated, rested, etc. And came up bent. If you wish to know more of the specifics please visit my web site at:
http://www.thelevyhome.com/alan/scuba/bends.htm

If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me directly.

All the best & Happy Diving.
Alan
 
Dear Scuba-Alan and Readers:

This is an interesting story and, when I web the description on the website, it was not evident that anything had been out of the ordinary. Your comment about weakness does indeed suggest neurological involvement. A paper publish in 1985 indicated that about one half of the divers experiencing CNS problems did so in the absence of any particularly difficult dives. [Dick AP, Massey EW. Neurologic presentation of decompression sickness and air embolism in sport divers. Neurology 1985 May;35(5):667-71].

It is the Haldane concept of decompression sickness, with its critical supersaturation limit that produces this almost metaphysical concept. Decompression sickness requires the presence of two factors. These are:
  • [1.] An amount of dissolved gas in excess of what can be held in solution, at equilibrium, at that pressure, and

    [2.] The presence of minute gas bubbles that can grow when the supersaturation exceeds the Laplace pressure (= contracting pressure resulting from surface tension).
If either is missing, growth of a decompression gas phase is not possible. The gas phase cannot form de novo (= from nothing) from supersaturation alone unless it is hundreds of atmospheres. In fact, no one has been able to really test the tensile strength of water because of impurities present in the liquids. The theoretical limit of water, predicted by Fisher in 1948, is about 1300 atmospheres (Fisher, J.C. (1948). The tensile strength of liquids. J. Appl. Phys. 19, 1062 - 1067.)

When some one gets the bends, they had too much gas in the tissues in addition to too many micronuclei. The tables and deco meters will only tell the former. Each diver must protect himself or herself against the latter. This is done by the avoidance of heavy musculoskeletal exercise.

In addition, there is the problem of arterialization of venous gas bubbles. This can result from a reversal of the left to right gradient in the atria of the heart. The most common way is by increasing the right atrial preload secondary to rebound flow. Ugh! That means, one performs a Valsalva-like maneuver (a true Valsalva maneuver, coughing, holding the breathe while climbing a ladder and then releasing it, etc.)

Without actually being present, I could not say what caused this “undeserved” hit. Suffice it to say that it was not engendered by the wrath of the gods on Mount Olympus. A physiological answer surely is at the basis. I wish that a more complete answer were possible.

In short, yes. You can do all the right deco procedures and still acquire decompression sickness.

Dr Deco:doctor:
 
Here's an example of DCS...

A reasonably fit person went scuba diving. Profile is well within limits, dive was not extreme, around 80 feet, ascent is ok. This person has lots of dives under his belt, had good buoyancy control.

After the dive, he went for lunch, ate something bad causing him to have upset stomach and got dehydrated in the process... then he gets bent. Type I.

Undeserved/Unexpected DCS or diver fault "again"...?

The point is, what we do before, during and well after our dives may affect us. Being extra careful is a must for all divers. :)
 
It seems to be agreed that some people get DCS when it is not expected, the cause of which is unknown (although there is a reason for it, even if we don't know what the reason is.) Probably various indvidual cases of "unexpected" DCS (where all KNOWN risk factors for DCS were avoided/minimized appropriately) have differing causes, as I am sure that there is more than one unknown factor involved in susceptibility to DCS.

So, are there any numbers out there to indicate what percentage of cases of DCS fall into this category? I keep hearing that the chances of it happening are VERY small, which I believe, but I was just wondering if anyone could put a number on it.

otter-cat
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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