June 29 Diver Death at Casino Point in Catalina

[donnad]

since the original post was deleted..........i haven't been able to find any news article or anything.........would like to know what happened..........did a diver die while diving........afterwards.........what do we know?

 

[Scot M]

Donnad, here are the basic events. The nonbreathing diver was discovered alone at the surface approximately 50 feet from the entry/exit point in less than 20 feet of water. Nearby divers removed him from the water and immediately began CPR. Paramedics were on scene within about 5 minutes. After about 15 minutes of continuous CPR, the injured diver was transported in the LA County Lifeguard rescue boat in the direction of the hyperbaric chamber at Two Harbors.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

With all due respect, Ken, this forum isn't just a place for the official conclusions to be posted. I don't see any reason why people with first-hand information should necessarily only communicate it to you or "through the proper channels", privacy and liability issues notwithstanding. That said, I wholeheartedly agree that uninformed speculation is unhelpful at best and harmful at worst.

I acutally agree with what you said and just didn't phrase mine well enough when I wrote my comment (at midnight after a long day).

I didn't mean at all to suggest that there shouldn't be discussion of this. There should be. Looking at cases like these and analzying would've/should've/could've can be quite beneficial for our teaching and supervisory skills (for those of us who do that) and learning about what happened is valuable to all divers of all skill levels.

There's nothing wrong with speclating about what might have gone wrong when that specualtion is clearly labelled as such and based on whatever the known facts are. I think when I used the term "speculate" in my post I probably should have instead used "hearsay" or "guess".

If you saw something, that's first-hand knowledge. If you heard soemthing, that's hearsay. I grow uncomfortable when I read that "I heard from someone who talked to somneone who heard from someone else . . ." That's usually how misinformation gets spread and that doesn't do anyone any good.

And perhaps I'm hyper-sensitive to this because with the fatality last month in the Park (official cause of death still undetermined - I'm turning in my report tomorrow and have ruled out equipment problems) there was a lot of misinformation going around and some of it was downright nasty.

What got me going here (and I don't think there was anything malicious) was the post from ReggieFerrari where he says "I asked a dive shop who said they spoke to the sheriff and that his regulator said he was at 6ft for 13 min." That information is wrong. It's not wrong by much (it seems - and I have yet to see the computer - that the max depth was 9 feet) but it's not the right number and it comes by way of triple hearsay. Besides, we don't know yet if the computer was working and recording properly (which is something we'll test).

I guess my overall message is to err/discuss on the side of caution, state clearly things you saw as opposed to what you heard (which Reggie certainly did), and steer clear of making guesses that sound like conclusions.

And just so everyone knows, one of things we've been grappling with for a while is how to better inform the diving community of the results of these cases. The Coroner's reports are public information which means you can request them. Chamber info is considered private because it's like being treated at a hospital. So we're still working on doing a better job in this area while still respecting privacy.

That all being said, since it seems that many of you were there for this one, there is something you can help us with.

Apparently, we received the tank with the valve turned OFF. Apparently, there's still air in the hoses. (I haven't seen the tank yet but this is what I've been told.) We also believe there's no way he cold have been underwater for 13 minutes with the valve off. The assumption would be that someone turned the valve off after he was brought out of the water (for whatever reason).

So the question for any of you that were there is: Did anyone see anyone else (or did one of you) handle the gear and perhaps turn the air off? If you know anything, please e-mail me directly at kenkurtis@aol.com.

Just so you know, our preferred protocol is that nothing gets touched/changed. If you do have to alter the equioment in any way (and sometimes you may need to to remove the computer or turn off a free-flowing reg), simply make notes of what you did and why, and give us some contact info for you so we can follow-up. One thing you can always do is make a written note of the air pressure reading, with a time and your name, and make sure that goes into the Sheriff's report &/or with the gear.

Sorry to ramble so long but just wanted to clear the air on these various matters.

 

[reggieferrari]

Hi ken, I wasn't speculating. I gave the bit of information i heard and i even added KINDA STRANGE. I didn't say that it was definite.


I was there. I was getting my gear on when i heard some diver who just came up say IS THAT A DIVER BY THE ROCKS? I turned and saw the man partly submerged. I also saw them pull him out and begin cpr. I saw the sheriff interview the Instructor he came with, and heard her say she was with a class he tagged along but dove with her husband.

I also know that the group of divers who spoted him were the ones who took the tank off.

My "misinformation" was given to me by the dive shop on the pier. The guy also said it was one of his instructors who helped carry him up.

I apologize if anyone thought I was speculating. I am not one to jump the gun and of course rumors will be said. I only know WHAT i saw. and What i heard is to always be taken with a grain of salt. Everyone wants answers.

 

[sporket]

I'm sorry to hear this too. My condolences to friends and family. Please keep us posted on your final report. This is something were not too prevalige to here from an examiner. We do a lot of speculation in no way do I feel is wrong. Maybe we can learn from it. Again, my deepest condolences.

 

[Walter]

one of things we've been grappling with for a while is how to better inform the diving community of the results of these cases.

That is very good news. One problem in the diving community is we hear about an accident, but never hear anything about the results of the investigations.

 

[Scot M]

Thanks for the clarification, Ken. Like Walter, I'm pleased to hear that there is thought going into disseminating investigation results more effectively.

Unfortunately I don't have any knowledge about the valve.

 

[ScubaDiva]

Those who read and post in this forum could benefit from reading the rules that go along with it once again...especially #4 it seems. Let's all work together and make the diving world a peaceful one. What do ya say?

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/52701-special-rules-please-read.html

 

[fisherdvm]

I
Apparently, we received the tank with the valve turned OFF. Apparently, there's still air in the hoses. (I haven't seen the tank yet but this is what I've been told.) We also believe there's no way he cold have been underwater for 13 minutes with the valve off. The assumption would be that someone turned the valve off after he was brought out of the water (for whatever reason).

I wonder if some well meaning official person might have turned the valve off to preserve an accurate record of the air level in the tank. Some system leaks air spontanously, and some will leak air purposely (sherwood/genesis - they lose about 20 cc of air per minute) - and if official records and exam of the equipment might not be done till hours later, it might give you an inaccurate reading on the amount of air left. I know that I lost about 2000 psi from my pony after leaving my sherwood on it for about 1 week.... Probably not of importance, but some system might leak faster, especially if the purge valve is accidentally bumped.

Pressurized air can still remain in the hose even if a diver jumped into the water with a tank valve turned off. Some time one can breath off one reg dry, and spit it out, there is still pressure left in the octo hose, and the inflator hose. That is one of the reason why I purge all 3 - primary, octo, and inflator hose - to depressurize the whole system before I undo the first stage from the tank.

Having air left in the hose does not automatically rule out that the valve was turned to the open position at the time the diver drowned.

I would suggest you test this out with a reg, and it will prove to you that one can jump in the water with a once pressurized system, then shut the valve off, then breath till the primary goes empty.... That if you quickly spit the primary out, the octopus and inflator hose will still be pressurized.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

I wonder if some well meaning official person might have turned the valve off to preserve an accurate record of the air level in the tank.

If they do, they're supposed to note it. Understand that the people who respond to this are very well-trained and frequentrly divers so they know what they're doing. Usually the "well-meaning" person is a bystander who thinks they're doing us a favor.

Getting a good read on air pressure is important but we'd rather just have you write it down on a piece of paper and not alter the gear.

The problem gets to be that if someone closed the valve, we have to report the equipment in the condition that it's given to us. And now we have to figure out if it was possible for whatever happened to have happened with the valve closed. Or we have to figure out who closed ther valve.

That's why we say Rule #1 (for bystanders especially) is don't touch anything. Rule #2 is that if you DO have to touch something, make note of what you did and why. That way, we can re-establish the original condition of the gear.

I would suggest you test this out with a reg ....

Way ahead of you here as that's one of our standard tests in cases like this. We reconstruct as much as we can. FWIW, you can actually get about 5-7 breaths on a reg that's had the air supply turned off.

We had a fatality a number of years ago where the ruling was that the guy turned his air off, forgot to turn it back on, got down about 50 feet or so (on a night dive no less), sucked his tank dry, turned to do a free ascent, got his leg entangled in the anchor line, couldn't reach back to turn on his valve, and drowned.

So we'll look at every conceivable scenario to explain what the physcial evidence shows us. But that's why it's important that the gear be left unaltered. In this case, it was picked up by the Sheriff's right away (probably 10 minutes after accident), transported with the victim up to the Chamber, helicoptered out by Sheriff's ESD when they went to transport the body, and then it was turned over to the Coroner. It was logged in by the Corner (the lead investigators happen to be divers), notes were made, I was notified, and I'll likely get the gear tomorrow and do the initial testing either tomorrow night or Wednesday with some water testing to follow on Thursday. Then we'll end up talking with whatever witnesses we can find, see who saw what, will try to talk to the instructor, her husband, members of the class, etc., etc. (some of whom have likely been interviewed already). And out of all of that, we'll try to piece together the most likely scenario. Once that's all done, my report is sent to the doctor who did the autoposy and, along with whatever rotuine tests they've run, will all be pieced together to determine a mode and manner of death.

So it's a rather lengthy and - we hope - complete process that can provide some explanations and closure for the family as well as some answers for the diving community.