Jacket BCDs, BP/W and bouyancy question

[Colliam7]

I'm currently wrestling with a few choices. I've only ever dived with (often older, middle-of-the-pack) rental jacket BCDs, but the freedom of a backplate/wing setup, or a rear inflate jacket BCD sounds very appealing. . . . What I'm mostly curious about is how easy it is to keep station in 'odd' positions with a backplate/wing system

I have never had a problem keeping station in inverted position, on my side, or on my back, with a BP/W. But, I can also do all those things with a jacket. So, I have trouble saying one has advantages over the other. Good dive skills, proper weighting, etc. make far more difference than the style of BCD.

We travel a lot when diving, so weight and transport is a key concern, and we're warm water recreational divers, so the option for full-on multi-tank support is a non-issue, at least for the foreseeable future. I think an aluminum plate and Hogarthian harnass single tank/donut wing should yield a fairly easy to travel with setup.

Yes, it would. But, a SS plate probably would as well.

I do wonder whether a minimalist no padding, single webbing harness system is ideal considering the fact I do quite a lot of shore diving - my girlfriend has family on Bonaire, so we've been going almost every year, and that means a lot of shore diving, long walks, etc. . . . That's where a little padding on the straps (a la Transplate) might provide a bit of comfort.

The idea of the benefit of padding is, frankly, much greater than the reality, and I would not make a decision to add padding because of plans for regular shore diving. I dive on Bonaire for a week each year. I travel there with a SS BP, with a single piece, unpadded harness. I have never had a problem with weight issues in checked luggage, but I seldom take much beyond shorts and shirts for land wear, and scuba gear. I always wear a full 1mm suit when I dive coral reefs (and even if the water temperature is 82 degrees, that is still a substantial gradient compared with body temperature, so I prefer some thermal protection for the '5-a-day' diving). Yes, there are some Bonaire sites with notable 'walks' to the water entry - Thousand Steps comes to mind, Karpata to some extent, La Dania's Leap actually has one of the longer walks, in my opinion. But, I have never had any problem with discomfort from shoulder straps on those walks, that caused me to think that padding would be of any value.

I think I understand what Rob is saying - about the BP 'hype' - although I would not necessarily use the same word. Basically, a good diver can work with a variety of gear configurations, for recreational diving, underwater photography, even technical diving to a certain extent. A BP/W is not a magical ticket to perfect horizontal trim, good buoyancy control, etc. Personally, I do prefer a BP/W for recreational and technical (backmount) diving. But, I am quite comfortable in my jacket BCD (a simple, non-weight-integrated AquaLung Wave). I do see several advantages to a BP: a) fabric BCDs, be they jacket or back-inflate, are generally positively buoyant. That translates to an additional weight requirement for the diver, unless they are inherently negatively buoyant, which most of us are not. In contrast, metal backplates with simple harnesses are usually negatively buoyant - unless that is altered by the additional of (unnecessary) padding- and the total weight obligation for the diver is less; b) a metal backplate places much of the weight of the BCD where it optimally belongs, adjacent to the diver's center of lift (thorax / lungs). If you have a 'floaty' fabric BCD, even if it is weight-integrated, the weight is usually placed below that center of lift (e.g. on the waist on a belt, or in pockets at the bottom of the BCD). The use of trim pockets on cam bands - for jackets, 'soft' back-inflates. and BPs - has helped correct this to some extent, but it remains an issue with regard to trim. You can be perfectly weighted, but the distribution can still be 'off' and create a foot-low diver - a 'Forty-fiver', if you are adding a substantial amount of weight to compensate for the 'floaty' fabric; c) wearing a SS BP i need virtually no added weight in certain configurations (fresh water, salt water with AL cylinder and 1 mm exposure suit), or i only need a minimal amount of added weight; d) the plate is versatile, and allows for changing the lift (wing), to suit different exposure suit / weight combinations (e.g. diving both warm and cold water); e) the BP is amenable to easy addition of a crotch strap, which serves to enhance the security of the scuba unit to the diver, and the overall stability of the rig. Yes, you can add a crotch strap to a jacket BCD with a little sewing (yourself or a shoe repair shop) and I have done this with two jacket BCDs over the years, so that is not an exclusive advantage of a BP. But, it is easier to add a crotch strap to a BP than a jacket; f) I find it much easier to properly fit a BP with a single piece harness to a variety of torsos (mine included) than it is with a jacket. A perfectly fitting jacket is great. Getting a perfect fit with a jacket may be a bit more challenging than with a BP.

I encourage you to seriously consider a BP/W. Ideally, you should try one and dive it before buying. But, that may not be practical.

 

[halocline]

I agree, and I don't see how a properly fitted jacket inhibits fun.

Have you ever used a BP/W? I'm guessing not based on your stated experience level. Try one, then come back to this thread; you may or may not change your opinion, but you certainly will have some experience to inform your opinion.

 

[Skeptic14]

You'll have a little bit more drag and wear a little bit more lead and none of that should make any difference to a leisurely drift in a gentle current.

Yeah, I would expect to hear from proponents of bp/w, how it is more streamlined, because that's probably true. But the question is of course how much, 5% more, 1% more, .05% more? And is this noticeable, specifically to a rec diver such as myself that has far more to be gained by practicing and increasing skills than buying a "magical" piece of equipment.

[/COLOR]
[/COLOR]Have you ever used a BP/W? I'm guessing not based on your stated experience level. Try one, then come back to this thread; you may or may not change your opinion, but you certainly will have some experience to inform your opinion.

Considering I'm not saying jacket bcds are better than a bp/w, only that I've found a proper fitting one works great for me I see no need to test anything else and report back to the internet. I've already found something comfortable for me, which is what matters.

My limited experience has helped me see fairly quickly that comfortable properly fitting gear is important.

And like I pointed out in a thread I started which was specifically about how to inspect a used axiom BCD but that immediately turned into an evangelical session for bp/w proponents... when my diving prowess reaches a level where I feel limited by a jacket I can always switch to the correct way of diving then, and buy a bp/w.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Jacket BC's are popular with beginners because:
1) That's what the dive shops tell them they need - economics for the dive shop
2) In most cases that's really all that's available when they first are exposed to the sport, as in walk-ins to an LDS and no awareness of the alternatives in the beginning. There are a few exceptions with shops that carry alternative gear but they are very few world wide.
3) That's what's in most rental fleets
4) They feel good and comfy when trying them on on dry land.
5) They place the diver upright (high and dry) on the surface making hanging around pleasant when they listen to their instructors.
6) They look nice to a beginner, complex, like they are getting something for their money.

Mostly I would say, Jacket BC's are popular to the rest of the dive world (besides Scubaboard) because they don't know any different.
How many alternatives have you seen on dive boats world wide? And if there are who's actually paying attention? If most divers never go on dive related websites, and their LDS's never carries anything else, rental fleets only have jackets, magazines only show jackets in pictures, articles, and gear reviews, how are they going to know anything else even exists?

 

[Skeptic14]

Jacket BC's are popular with beginners because:
1) That's what the dive shops tell them they need - economics for the dive shop
2) In most cases that's really all that's available when they first are exposed to the sport, as in walk-ins to an LDS and no awareness of the alternatives in the beginning. There are a few exceptions with shops that carry alternative gear but they are very few world wide.
3) That's what's in most rental fleets
4) They feel good and comfy when trying them on on dry land.
5) They place the diver upright (high and dry) on the surface making hanging around pleasant when they listen to their instructors.
6) They look nice to a beginner, complex, like they are getting something for their money.

Mostly I would say, Jacket BC's are popular to the rest of the dive world (besides Scubaboard) because they don't know any different.
How many alternatives have you seen on dive boats world wide? And if there are who's actually paying attention? If most divers never go on dive related websites, and their LDS's never carries anything else, rental fleets only have jackets, magazines only show jackets in pictures, articles, and gear reviews, how are they going to know anything else even exists?

What about dive shops that sell both?

Couldn't simple gear be more appealing to new divers that might be overwhelmed by "complex" looking gear?

Is it really that hard to fathom that some people might like and prefer gear that is different to what you prefer?

You may be right though, all your choices are the true correct ones, and those making different choices are ignorant

Having hardly been active on this board it is comical how overboard some bp/w folks get.

 

[dmaziuk]

Yeah, I would expect to hear from proponents of bp/w, how it is more streamlined, because that's probably true. But the question is of course how much, 5% more, 1% more, .05% more? And is this noticeable, specifically to a rec diver such as myself that has far more to be gained by practicing and increasing skills than buying a "magical" piece of equipment.

I doubt anyone ever tried to gather hard (or any kind of) numbers. Even if the extra drag is relatively significant -- relative to the drag added by the tank and other chunky gear that's not going to change with the type of BCD -- I sincerely doubt it makes any noticeable difference on a recreational dive.

I can tell you that last time in a jacket I wore 9lbs of lead in salt water. In a bp&w: 1lb in the trim pocket -- that's in a pool so I think I'll have 3 in the sea and be a pound overweighted. BP&W = no more weight belt. That is noticeable and more comfortable to me.

 

[Skeptic14]

Right now, I only need 5-6lbs in salt water with a shortie... so I'm not carrying much lead with a jacket to begin with, but for some that could be a real reason to consider a bp/w.

 

[dmaziuk]

Right now, I only need 5-6lbs in salt water with a shortie... so I'm not carrying much lead with a jacket to begin with, but for some that could be a real reason to consider a bp/w.

Well I've been swimming since childhood -- on and off, but when you start at six it tends to stick. So I can, say, very much feel the drag of boardshorts vs speedos when swimming laps, esp. breaststroke. And I do feel more comfortable without the jacket. In terms of functionality 90% of the time I have no air in the cell anyway so I could just as easily ditch the wing, too, except most ops won't let me dive that way.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

What about dive shops that sell both?

Couldn't simple gear be more appealing to new divers that might be overwhelmed by "complex" looking gear?

Is it really that hard to fathom that some people might like and prefer gear that is different to what you prefer?

You may be right though, all your choices are the true correct ones, and those making different choices are ignorant

Having hardly been active on this board it is comical how overboard some bp/w folks get.

What is the ratio of dive shops that carry both to the dive shops that carry only jackets?
Out of all the dive shops in California how many do you think carry both?
And out of the ones that do carry both, what type of display do they have for the BP/W as opposed to the jackets and how hard do they market them, and which group do they market them too?
The rest of the world isn't the east coast with wrecks and caves, you guys are in a bubble as far as quantity of shops that might sell both. What is the percentage of shops on the east coast that carry both? Do all of them, or is it a few here and there? And how are they marketing them - to the doubles tech crowd or the single tank recreational diver?

All I'm saying is that BP/W haven't had the same exposure that jackets get, not even close. If it was equal and the marketing was equal I wonder what the outcome would be? How would it look if shops only sold and trained people in BP/W and you could only find a jacket in 1 out of 100 shops?
Judging by how people who go from jackets to BP/W, as opposed to how many BP/W people go to jackets, I'd say the plate/wing system would be a pretty darn strong contender.
I think people who go from BP/W to jackets are about as rare as hens teeth, but the same can't be said for people that go from jackets to BP/W.
BTW, the biggest market currently for BP/W systems are single tank users.....and most of those people are dumping their jackets.

---------- Post added December 30th, 2015 at 04:15 PM ----------

Well I've been swimming since childhood -- on and off, but when you start at six it tends to stick. So I can, say, very much feel the drag of boardshorts vs speedos when swimming laps, esp. breaststroke. And I do feel more comfortable without the jacket. In terms of functionality 90% of the time I have no air in the cell anyway so I could just as easily ditch the wing, too, except most ops won't let me dive that way.

Go to Ventura California and go on the Peace dive boat, they will let you dive that way.
Gallery of California Backpack Divers : 1999-2001

 

[mbs]

Proper fit seems to be an important point in this thread. Op, its great that you have found a jacket style that you believe fits you perfectly. I thought my old minimal (no pockets) back inflate bc fit me well. Until I got my bpw earlier this year. The point being that you should be able to get a perfect fit with a bpw whereas that may not be so for everyone with a jacket bc.