Issue with Ikelite Customer Support

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You're running into a fundamental physics issue. A dome port in water acts as a lens element, presenting the lens behind it with a curved virtual image. Google 'dome port theory' and you'll find a bunch of articles with detailed explanations, but the gist of it is, even if you're shooting a straight wall head-on, it becomes a dome with the curvature proportional to your dome port's radius, so the corners are significantly closer to your camera than the center.

Depth of field is inversely proportional to magnification, so large sensor cameras - and your is, I infer from the lens, full-frame - have a thinner depth of field at an equivalent aperture setting than a smaller sensor camera would.

Depth of field is also inversely proportional to the aperture, so closing down the aperture will bring more of the image into sharper focus. I shoot an APS-C camera (Sony a6300) and I typically use f/8 to f/11; with a full-frame camera, you should probably be targeting f/13-f/16 as a baseline, especially with a small dome.

Yes, this means raising the ISO and/or slowing down the shutter speed to compensate, as well as raising strobe power - this is the reason why large-sensor cameras need big powerful strobes for wide-angle shots, whereas small-sensor compacts can get away with smaller ones.

You can also get a larger dome to counteract this effect - while Ikelite doesn't sell any domes larger than 8 inches, you can get the much larger Zen DP230 in an Ikelite mount. You don't mention which specific dome you have, but from the photos in your post and Ikelite's offer to get the 'full dome', I infer that you're using the 75344 compact dome - Ikelite's recommended setup for better edge sharpess is indeed 75340 8-inch dome, and this can indeed help, although shooting rectilinear wide full-frame at f/4 is a pipe dream regardless of dome size.

Finally, you can switch to a fisheye lens; either Canon 8-15mm f/4L or a Sigma 15mm, using a Metabones or MC-11 adapter. This will give you a much wider field of view and greater depth of field, at the cost of barrel distortion. Most underwater photographers prefer fisheyes over rectilinear ultrawide lenses, unless shooting manmade objects with straight lines such as wrecks - see this thread for some examples why: The advantages of fisheye zooms!

Note that the Canon 8-15mm, by itself, has basically two settings - a circular fisheye (i.e. a round image covering a hemisphere surrounded by black) at 8mm, and a 180 degree diagonal fisheye at 15mm - intermediate positions just give you varying degrees of vignetting. If you don't want the circular fisheye look, you can mount it on a teleconverter to get some more reach. A 1.4x teleconverter will give you 180 degree fisheye at 11mm, whereas a 2x teleconverter will give you the full zoom range. However, if you opt of the 2x option, make sure to get the latest Kenko Teleplus HD Pro version, as older ones produce significant image quality degradation.

If you really want to shoot at wide apertures underwater, then your only real solution is a Nikonos RS 13mm adaptation by Isaac Szabo - see this article for full details: Review of the Nikonos 13mm Conversion for Sony Mirrorless It is currently only available in Nauticam and SeaFrogs mounts, but I'm sure Isaac could develop an Ikelite adapter if needed. It is, however, a very limited availability item, with two samples up on ebay as I'm writing this - one for $3400 and another for $3900, plus the $1000 conversion fee and the $200-ish Sony 50mm donor lens. It used to be cheaper, in the $1200-1500 range, but the availability of a viable conversion method for modern mirrorless cameras (there were older conversions, but they only worked for Nikon DSLRs) has spiked demand, and thus prices, since this lens was only produced from 1992 to 1996, there are maybe a few hundred in circulation, and no more will ever be made.
I truly appreciate the time you took in replying. Thank you for clarifying some aspects. Although I have been reading a lot about this, there are specifics that are way over my understanding, it is indeed a very complex optics issue. If you read above comment to tusiops, you will see some of the articles you were probably talking about. I have been scratching my head ever since I got this dome under water. And I have to mention again, I don't use strobes and I am not interested in using strobes, so I pay a big price for small apertures.

The truth is that in the absence of real testing in my hands, as a client, I can only rely on Ikelite's lens guide and descriptions before purchasing online. I couldn't have forseen this and nothing to me indicated that I was goint to be experiencing this level of distortion to the extent that I regret my choice.
Here is the link to other test images at different apertures if you feel so inclined:

I trusted they had made their optical tests for this lens and considering their article online went for it. There was no indication whatsoever about your above caveats.
Perhaps with years of experience such as yours, one has a better understanding of gear limitations.

Still, I feel shutting the door with the client will never be the way forward. All I want right now is to change this for a 8"dome.

πŸ™
 
Ikelite port chart does specify the 75340 port as having superior edge sharpness, while 75344 is described as 'Compact and lightweight for travel'.

If you are dead set on shooting natural light without strobes, then your most economical way forward is probably a Sigma 15mm fisheye + adapter. You can get both, second-hand, for around $300-400, and per Ikelite's port chart, it works with your existing 75340 dome. You will lose zoom capability, but gain a wider field of view and lots of DoF. If you must have zoom, then you'll need a Canon 8-15mm - a much more expensive lens, generally $700+ even used - plus Kenko teleconverter, plus your own zoom gear, as Ikelite's zoom gear for this lens does not work with the TC.

Keep in mind that the vast, vast majority of serious underwater photographers use a pair of strobes with their cameras. Quality of light is what makes or breaks underwater shots.
 
Ikelite port chart does specify the 75340 port as having superior edge sharpness, while 75344 is described as 'Compact and lightweight for travel'.

If you are dead set on shooting natural light without strobes, then your most economical way forward is probably a Sigma 15mm fisheye + adapter. You can get both, second-hand, for around $300-400, and per Ikelite's port chart, it works with your existing 75340 dome. You will lose zoom capability, but gain a wider field of view and lots of DoF. If you must have zoom, then you'll need a Canon 8-15mm - a much more expensive lens, generally $700+ even used - plus Kenko teleconverter, plus your own zoom gear, as Ikelite's zoom gear for this lens does not work with the TC.

Keep in mind that the vast, vast majority of serious underwater photographers use a pair of strobes with their cameras. Quality of light is what makes or breaks underwater shots.
in fairness, looking at his gallery, i would be pretty unhappy as well. Even the centre area of sharp is super small, it's like a pinhole effect with some lovely Van Gogh level rendering outside going on (which may be fun to experiment with but obviously most would not)There really is something to be said that just because it fits doesn't mean it is usable regards domes. That lens should not have been listed as good to go with that dome IMHO, and the expectation of exchange for a 8" dome is not unreasonable.

Yeah, I think had he known more , he wouldn't have picked that combo, but also is new to it all.

Oh, and OP, strobe(s) would make your colours pop really well, and your composition looks like promise.
 
in fairness, looking at his gallery, i would be pretty unhappy as well. Even the centre area of sharp is super small, it's like a pinhole effect with some lovely Van Gogh level rendering outside going on (which may be fun to experiment with but obviously most would not)There really is something to be said that just because it fits doesn't mean it is usable regards domes. That lens should not have been listed as good to go with that dome IMHO, and the expectation of exchange for a 8" dome is not unreasonable.
That's pretty much par the course for a rectilinear ultrawide behind a fairly small dome at a wide aperture. The shots taken at f/16 look quite reasonable - you can get better with a 230-250mm dome, but corners are never great with this kind of setup. You can make it a little better by using manual focus biased to a closer distance, but it's a big pain in the ass to manage, even if you have the extra focus gear in addition to the zoom one. The wider apertures (not f/4, but something like f/8) are still usable if you're shooting pelagics with just water in all four corners.
 
If you are dead set on shooting natural light without strobes, then your most economical way forward is probably a Sigma 15mm fisheye + adapter. You can get both, second-hand, for around $300-400, and per Ikelite's port chart, it works with your existing 75340 dome. You will lose zoom capability, but gain a wider field of view and lots of DoF. If you must have zoom, then you'll need a Canon 8-15mm - a much more expensive lens, generally $700+ even used - plus Kenko teleconverter, plus your own zoom gear, as Ikelite's zoom gear for this lens does not work with the TC.


Thank you for this valuable imput.

I used to shoot with the 10-17mm tokina, it worked like a charm on my nikon d750.
I would really like to go back to it using it, perhaps with a canon to sony converter, but the lens is not listed on the ikelite guide and I feel I would be risking getting the optics wrong or need more extensions. I don't live in US or EU, all this is usually quite strenuous and expensive to organize.

The photos I attached are just raw test shots, there are not even processed, that's not representative of the kind of photography I aim to do.

On the strobes, that could in itself be another whole interesting thread of discussion, which I would be willing to have another time. But if I may put in simple terms, I refuse, as a personal choice, to fire bright white lights at wildlife. I wouldn't do it in a savanah and I won't do so underwater. Everything I do has to work around that choice.

I thank you again for the feedback, and apologise if I sound defensive. It's just been a frustrating affair for me.
 
in fairness, looking at his gallery, i would be pretty unhappy as well. Even the centre area of sharp is super small, it's like a pinhole effect with some lovely Van Gogh level rendering outside going on (which may be fun to experiment with but obviously most would not)There really is something to be said that just because it fits doesn't mean it is usable regards domes. That lens should not have been listed as good to go with that dome IMHO, and the expectation of exchange for a 8" dome is not unreasonable.

Yeah, I think had he known more , he wouldn't have picked that combo, but also is new to it all.

Oh, and OP, strobe(s) would make your colours pop really well, and your composition looks like promise.


Thanks for this.
It's great to be getting some more feedback. I was starting to think I exagerating or overthinking all this.

I'm still hoping the retailer is going to make the exchange, I managed to get hold of them via a phone call today. But the fact is Ikelite has had a disappointing response and follow through. Making me feel like I should just sell all of it and move over to a different brand.

The shots are in RAW, so of they are going to look dull and uninteresting. But maybe these two photos shows you better what I like to do. (again, the edges are not great)
No strobes needed in shallow water, one breath and dive weights. That's all I want and need.

Fingers crossed 🀞 waiting for retailer to email back.
 

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I used to shoot with the 10-17mm tokina, it worked like a charm on my nikon d750.
I would really like to go back to it using it, perhaps with a canon to sony converter, but the lens is not listed on the ikelite guide and I feel I would be risking getting the optics wrong or need more extensions.
Being an APS-C lens, it's on the DLM port chart - https://docs.ikelite.com/reference/port-chart-dlm-a-system-sony.pdf

AFAIK, while the Tokina 10-17mm does work on a full-frame camera, there is very little zoom range in it that doesn't vignette (15-17mm), so you might as well get the Sigma 15mm fisheye prime, or spend the money on a Canon 8-15mm + Kenko Teleplus HD Pro 2x and get a full 16-30mm fisheye zoom.
 
Here is a website you can add your camera and lens to get the depth of field in focus. I used sony full frame and your lens. But i guessed on you exact camera and lens. the results i get is at f4 1 foot .27 is in focus. f4 at 2 foot 1.2 feet. As you can see as you go from f4 to f22 more areas are in the depth of field. All the way to infinity
Subject distance (feet)f/1.0f/1.1f/1.2f/1.3f/1.4f/1.6f/1.7f/1.8f/2.0f/2.2f/2.4f/2.5f/2.8f/3.2f/3.3f/3.5f/4.0f/4.5f/4.8f/5.0f/5.6f/6.3f/6.7f/7.1f/8.0f/9.0f/9.5f/10f/11f/12.7f/13f/14f/16f/18f/19f/20f/22f/25f/27f/29f/32f/36f/38f/40f/45f/51f/54f/57f/64f/72f/76f/80f/90f/101f/107f/114f/128f/180f/200f/215f/256f/360f/400f/430f/512f/720f/800f/860f/1024
Subject distance (feet)f/1.0f/1.1f/1.2f/1.3f/1.4f/1.6f/1.7f/1.8f/2.0f/2.2f/2.4f/2.5f/2.8f/3.2f/3.3f/3.5f/4.0f/4.5f/4.8f/5.0f/5.6f/6.3f/6.7f/7.1f/8.0f/9.0f/9.5f/10f/11f/12.7f/13f/14f/16f/18f/19f/20f/22f/25f/27f/29f/32f/36f/38f/40f/45f/51f/54f/57f/64f/72f/76f/80f/90f/101f/107f/114f/128f/180f/200f/215f/256f/360f/400f/430f/512f/720f/800f/860f/1024
10.070.080.080.090.100.110.110.120.140.150.160.170.190.220.230.240.270.310.330.350.390.440.470.500.570.660.700.750.871.021.111.211.451.802.032.323.195.026.9811.37∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞
20.280.310.330.350.400.450.470.500.570.640.680.720.810.920.981.051.201.371.471.581.842.162.352.573.143.954.515.237.5913.5121.91∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞
30.640.720.760.810.911.031.091.161.321.491.591.701.952.242.412.603.043.603.954.365.427.038.229.8415.9941.14∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞
41.151.301.381.461.661.882.002.142.442.803.013.233.774.444.855.326.528.299.5311.1616.7432.5961.14∞
 
Thanks for this.
It's great to be getting some more feedback. I was starting to think I exagerating or overthinking all this.

I'm still hoping the retailer is going to make the exchange, I managed to get hold of them via a phone call today. But the fact is Ikelite has had a disappointing response and follow through. Making me feel like I should just sell all of it and move over to a different brand.

The shots are in RAW, so of they are going to look dull and uninteresting. But maybe these two photos shows you better what I like to do. (again, the edges are not great)
No strobes needed in shallow water, one breath and dive weights. That's all I want and need.

Fingers crossed 🀞 waiting for retailer to email back.
in fairness, at first I did think you were being a bit ...over the top? Then I looked at your images, and the dome and ended up seeing your perspective.
 
That's pretty much par the course for a rectilinear ultrawide behind a fairly small dome at a wide aperture. The shots taken at f/16 look quite reasonable - you can get better with a 230-250mm dome, but corners are never great with this kind of setup. You can make it a little better by using manual focus biased to a closer distance, but it's a big pain in the ass to manage, even if you have the extra focus gear in addition to the zoom one. The wider apertures (not f/4, but something like f/8) are still usable if you're shooting pelagics with just water in all four corners.
sure, and we could even play with a diopter (if one would even fit) as well to see if can get better. But, regardless, that lens and dome combination are a pretty bad combo and shouldn't be on a recommended list, even if you say use wider apertures.


I could get better shots with a motormarine 2 using 35 and taking a picture of the 4x6 prints with my phone for sharpness. I could get 3 phones and half a dozen motormarines 2's on ebay for that... Just saying .

here are crap scans of old 1990's MM2 shots
cayman no diving.jpg
cayman sub sunset.jpg
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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