Israeli woman drowns during epileptic incident - Sharm el-Sheikh, Egypt

[Aura]

That's a repeat theme in these discussions, individual liberty vs. informing and bowing to the will of Big Brother, what's legit for a dive op. to 'discriminate' against/protect themselves from, and to what extent the process is about protecting the diver vs. clearing the dive op. from liability (or maintaining a shop's insurability) - often by transferring potential liability onto a physician who may know little about dive medicine or diving. It's a broad issue with many shades of gray.

I think beyond what's considered an absolute counterindication to diving, there isn't really much of a grey zone. But I guess you could see it that way if you think of the reason of why you should not dive as the malicious will of an obscure higher power. Perhaps I'm naïve, but I think it's simply a matter of decency towards your fellow divers. The moment someone who dives with a medical issue gets into trouble in the water, it is no longer about themselves. Then they have caused a situation where others are at risk. And in this tragic case, that the lifeguards are accused of incompetence, even though the husband himself said in one of the articles that she didn't want to let her epilepsy stop her from diving, and kept it to herself.
People need to realize that this is not about their individual freedom, but that it has (potential) consequences for everybody they dive with as well. I hope that if I ever get a medical problem that makes it irresponsible for me to dive, that I will not cause others to witness a fatal accident.

 

[drrich2]

But I guess you could see it that way if you think of the reason of why you should not dive as the malicious will of an obscure higher power.

Not malicious, but there's an old saying - 'Where you stand on an issue depends on where you sit.' The physician looking at a medical clearance doesn't want to risk getting sued if you die, the dive shop wants to stay insured, and neither is terribly concerned about your passion for diving as a life enrichment. There are a range of issues here beyond specific risk level.

Analogy: I would rebel if you tried to put a Dietician in charge of what I can eat, and a personal trainer in charge of an exercise regimen I'd be required to do. Yes, in theory it'd be healthier. Yes, my earlier death of life-style related medical co-morbidities will likely impact other people. Think of all the 'risky' things we're allowed to do without medical clearance.

Then they have caused a situation where others are at risk.

Which we do every time we take a car out on the highway. The issue of medical clearance involves drawing a hard line through an often gray area. Some cases are pretty clear cut (e.g.: active epilepsy with known ongoing seizure risk), but some are very dubious and appear more an issue with dive op.s maintaining insurance and minimizing liability risk rather than fear for the diver, or that a guide might be harmed performing an in-water rescue.

People need to realize that this is not about their individual freedom, but that it has (potential) consequences for everybody they dive with as well.

It's about both. In an interconnected society, one can always say someone's death might have impacts on others in some way, but I cannot accept that automatically tosses out individual freedom/liberty since it seems there'd be little freedom left for anyone. A big issue is how much risk, and of what? I would tend to agree about an epileptic being a hazard, and judge these things on a case-by-case basis.

This issue has been debated in a number of threads, so I don't want to get too far off track. Nobody has an issue with getting evaluated where there's reasonable cause so as to make an informed decision. The debate tends to hinge around whether you keep your issues to yourself and decide for yourself (maybe not to dive!), or disclose your issues and risk someone else deciding you won't be diving whether you wish to or not.

 

[dmaziuk]

I think beyond what's considered an absolute counterindication to diving, there isn't really much of a grey zone.

Have you actually read the WRSTC medical questionnaire? Do you really think it's wise to truthfully answer "yes" the the "recreactional drug use in the last five years" question? Especially if diving in one of those backwards places where they hang people for it?

 

[boulderjohn]

The question of a dive operator believing it has a duty to protect you from your own poor but personal decisions is complicated by the fact that they know all too well what can happen when bad consequences follow those poor but personal decisions.

A good example comes from outside the realm of medical decisions. The NSS-CDS owned a property with access to a cave requiring advanced cave training. That access was controlled by NSS-CDS personnel to prevent unqualified people from entering the cave. Two people who were absolutely not qualified got access, saying they wanted to do volunteer work cleaning up the site. They went diving instead. After the fatality, the family sued because the NSS-CDS did not do a good enough job keeping the divers from intentionally putting themselves at risk through their deception, and that lawsuit almost bankrupted the NSS-CDS.

So there's your precedent. If you deceive a dive operator and suffer a fatality because of your deception, your family can sue the operator for not doing a good enough job uncovering your deception.

 

[Aura]

Do you really think it's wise to truthfully answer "yes" the the "recreactional drug use in the last five years" question? Especially if diving in one of those backwards places where they hang people for it?

I'd say the obvious solution would be to not do drugs. Your comment reminds me of the case where a british instructor was on trial for years accused of manslaughter, because his student had done cocaine and died during a training dive. The student lied on the medical.
Do you agree with boulderjohn's comment?

If you deceive a dive operator and suffer a fatality because of your deception, your family can sue the operator for not doing a good enough job uncovering your deception.

If your rights for "individual freedom" includes ruining other people's lives and livelihoods, then I am never going to agree with you. Of course that is not what someone has in mind when they lie on the medical. The only thing they have in mind when they do so, is themselves.

 

[Bob DBF]

I'd say the obvious solution would be to not do drugs. Your comment reminds me of the case where a british instructor was on trial for years accused of manslaughter, because his student had done cocaine and died during a training dive. The student lied on the medical.
Do you agree with boulderjohn's comment?

If your rights for "individual freedom" includes ruining other people's lives and livelihoods, then I am never going to agree with you. Of course that is not what someone has in mind when they lie on the medical. The only thing they have in mind when they do so, is themselves.

Sounds like the court system is a much larger problem than an individual lying on questionnaires.

 

[Aura]

Sounds like the court system is a much larger problem than an individual lying on questionnaires.

Only if completely disregarding any physical or emotional impact witnessing or dealing with a potentially fatal accident has on everybody else in the water. But then again, that seems to be the recurring theme here.

I won't participate in this discussion any longer. I just find the total disregard for other people surprising.

 

[Marie13]

There was a death at a Midwestern quarry some time back. The teenaged kid had asthma and the parents didn’t include that on the medical form.

 

[dmaziuk]

I'd say the obvious solution would be to not do drugs.

The even more obvious one is to not dive. To follow that line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, the only way to be sure is to not get born.

I'm allergic to pets. If an operator were to fill my tank with cat hair, I'd very likely have an asthma attack (bronchial constriction) from breathing that. I am sure that would be my fault for "lying about my health".

 

[noserider]

It looks like the shark has taken a second person and all swimming, diving, snorkelling, wid and kite surfing has been stopped - condolences must go out to the families of both victims

Egypt: Red Sea beaches close after deadly shark attack

Two women tourists died after being attacked while swimming near the Egyptian city of Hurghada.

www.bbc.co.uk