ISO Clearer Definitions on "Training" and "Certification"

[Ryan Neely]

Greetings, all!

I'm having a frustration when it comes to scheduling my next level of training and I thought that a part of my frustration could be due to a misunderstanding of the definitions of what a training agency does and what a certification means.

Some history. I am a new Open Water diver. Certified on May 23rd of this year, my wife (and buddy) have been diving on our own in lakes around our region as well as diving with our LDS on several Fun Dives. We've put in about fifteen dives so far and have worked diligently to improve our buoyancy control and trim as the first step to becoming better divers.

We know that, eventually, we're going to want to take an Advanced Open Water class. If our schedule holds, that won't be until the winter of 2020 and after we've logged around fifty dives.

From lurking around here, I get the sense that having a good instructor is part and parcel to actually improving and being "trained" versus simply demonstrating skills and being evaluated based on that demonstration. (As a Learner, this is extremely frustrating to begin with. My definition of training in the title "training agency" leads me, instinctively, to believe that I'll be shown how and why to do things.)

I can validate the concern of having a good instructor. My wife and I first became hooked on scuba with a woman in Bonaire who guided us through a couple of Discover Scuba dives. Had it not been for her, we probably would have bailed on the entire endeavor during our pool training. The differences in personality and instruction between the two individuals was night and day.

All else aside, here's where I'm struggling:

I'd like to take an Advanced Open Water class. Not for the certification, but for the knowledge and experience being "trained" in those skills will provide. Because the dives during an AOW course are where my interests lie, I'm more interested in taking those courses than the AOW course. Deep Diver, Navigation, Peak Performance Buoyancy, etc. These are things that not only do I believe would make me a better diver but would help me to enjoy my time underwater that much more.

However, everyone I speak with says, "Don't worry about doing those individual courses. Do the Advanced Open Water and continue to dive. You'll get it eventually."

I don't want to "get it eventually." I want to have someone who is well trained and experienced to work with me, see my individual needs, help me change my habits ... in short, I want someone to train me in best practices, etc.

If all you needed was the Advanced Open Water card, why is it structured around the first dive of a variety of other options? Is it only to sell more C-Cards?

One would think there would be additional knowledge and experience that could be gained by completing the rest of those courses.

What am I missing here?

 

[tursiops]

What am I missing here?

What you are missing is that the people you've talked to and what you've heard about AOW are not well informed. The first dive of each specialty does NOT contain all the information or skills. Sure, you can stop there and miss out on a lot until maybe someday you manage somehow to pick up the additional knowledge and practice the additional skills, but most likely you will not. You may think so, but you don't know what you don't know. AOW is just a sampler to help you find some things to do while diving that appeal to you, and it provides some additional info beyond OW. The full specialities are even better, but many folks don't want to invest the time, money, and effort on something they don't know if they will enjoy or not. Find that great instructor, do AOW, continue with that person or some other great instructor to complete any of the specialities that click for you. For some it might be Fish ID, for others Wrecks, for some Photography. Think of it as building a basis for lots of future diving doing something you really enjoy.

 

[Ryan Neely]

you don't know what you don't know.

Probably the best answer I could have hoped for. My staff hate me for spouting that exact quote when I correct their mistakes. "You don't know what you don't know ... until you learn what you didn't know."

Thanks for that.

Just to clarify, since I am already very interested in Deep Diver, Peak Performance Buoyancy, Navigation, Photography, etc., I should just search out the instructor that is willing to dedicate the energy for those courses (rather than idly sit by) and take those courses despite "popular opinion" from those around me. Basically, do me and forget the rest.

Thanks!

 

[tursiops]

Probably the best answer I could have hoped for. My staff hate me for spouting that exact quote when I correct their mistakes. "You don't know what you don't know ... until you learn what you didn't know."

Thanks for that.

Just to clarify, since I am already very interested in Deep Diver, Peak Performance Buoyancy, Navigation, Photography, etc., I should just search out the instructor that is willing to dedicate the energy for those courses (rather than idly sit by) and take those courses despite "popular opinion" from those around me. Basically, do me and forget the rest.

Thanks!

There is only one thing in AOW that is not in the collection of specialities and that is something called Thinking Like a Diver. Just ask your instructor to cover that with you.
One complication might be that the prereq for Deep is Adventure Diver. Your instructor can work with you to make sure Stabdards are being followed.

 

[decompression]

There are a few instructors that put more emphasis on training vs certification. I mean a vast majority of instructors (from most agencies) will
take you on the dives, go through the skills and sign your certification card.........that is how its been done for ages......and lets you "practice until you get it" on your own after the course. Sound like your open water course?

It seems to me that you have a desire to learn and feel confident in new skills that expose you to more elements of diving and just having a card doesn't matter...... you want to be a diver.....

So, one way to seek out this path is find an instructor (there are certain agencies that make this search easier) that doesn't limit your training by time but to mastery of skills. Example, "the advance course is 5 dives over 2 weekends and then you are done". Find and instructor who charges by the day and therefore focuses on your ability to perform the skill over and over until its now muscle memory and then moves on to the next level. Feeling confident is a huge part of safety and enjoyment as you can move the focus away from yourself and worrying about your skills to environmental awareness and actual see far more of what you're down there for.

 

[Jcp2]

Having just recently accompanied my daughter in her AOW training, I can appreciate where you coming from. She had an excellent instructor who charged by the day and even though he named certain dives as being for certain required things for certification, the totality of the skills were worked on constantly on all dives. Every dive had an element of trim, buoyancy control, and propulsion. She did a bit of navigation on all the shore dives. She towed a flag around, both for trim and experience. She deployed her DSMB multiple times at depth. Most importantly, she got a lot of time in the water, with long shallow shore dives being favored over deeper boat dives (which we also did). I had such a nice experience that I would gladly pay this instructor for a day or two of his time with no official certification to be gained, as I feel that one day with him is worth several times that on my own in terms of skill development.

 

[Bob DBF]

Just to clarify, since I am already very interested in Deep Diver, Peak Performance Buoyancy, Navigation, Photography, etc., I should just search out the instructor that is willing to dedicate the energy for those courses (rather than idly sit by) and take those courses despite "popular opinion" from those around me. Basically, do me and forget the rest.

@tursiops covered most of it, but AOW certification is used as a gatekeeper by some dive op's, and you may be excluded from some dives. This may not an issue if you are diving locally, or beach diving, but could come up when you travel. If it makes any difference, it may cost more to avoid AOW and get it after the fact, than if done upfront.

You may also find that the AOW dive of a specialty is enough for now and rearrange your training priorities. In addition, you may find that training with a good photographer, not for certification, could be of more value than getting the card, this can extend to other skills as well. When you go to a used book store or yard sale start working on a SCUBA library, you can fill in some of what you don't know by reading.


Cheers

Bob

 

[hroark2112]

Here's my 2 cents.

AOW is great to get under your belt. It will open up opportunities to do dives you might not get to do without it. You definitely want to get it at some point.

That being said, what you really want is skills. Find a good instructor, sit down with him or her, and tell him what you want to improve on, what skills you feel you are best and worst at, and where you want to get with your diving.

If you can find a GUE instructor, Fundamentals will give you everything you want and more. Food for thought.

 

[divinh]

I hope the expectation is not that you'll get a course where once you get the certification, you've "mastered" the skills of the speciality, as it's really practice, practice, practice. There's always room for improvement and you'll eventually encounter situation you've not encountered in a course.

 

[The Chairman]

Peak Performance Buoyancy should never have to be taught, except as a remedial course. Yeah, I've posted this a lot, almost to the point of being a POV warrior, but trim. bouyancy and propulsion are such critical aspects of comfort and fun during a dive, that they should be taught in OW. It's why I don't provide a card when I do a clinic and this alone gives my feelings between training and getting a cert.

I would suggest to take classes from as many instructors/shops as you can. You'll be exposed to different POVs, just like reading here, and that's important. AOW is loosely structured for most agencies. More than anything, it seems to be designed to instill more confidence in nervous divers. I take an adaptive approach to all my classes and AOW is no different. I have a set of skills and experiences I want my students to have, but I often have to do remedial instruction. I've stopped doing AOW with a new student without a pool session or shakeout dive in pool like conditions. Almost to a person, we've had trim/buoyancy issues. I also take this time to find out what they want out of the class in addition to what I have planned. Great instructors listen to their students and tailor their classes accordingly.

No matter what class you take, no instructor, myself included, can dive for you. There are people who are in love of "mastery" and their pursuit of perfection, while somewhat commendable, often interferes with their ability to really have fun on a dive. I ask my students to put at least a dozen dives between classes. At least. You should have come out of your OW class as a competent diver. If you find out that your next dive is also your next class then you're doing it wrong. Get off the couch and dive!

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It's particularly ironic that I post this from my recliner as I recuperate from a broken leg I sustained while diving in Fiji. I hate sitting and that's all I can do right now!