Is Side Mount the new DIR??? Building resentment towards us as a group...

[nakatomi]

Some people look for an excuse to be an a-hole online and while brave on the internet, often say nothing to the person's face at the dive site. I've seen all sorts of configurations for both side and back mount. Unless they are silting out the place, I really don't care how they configure it.

If the knees hang, the SPG's point towards the ground, the top mounted stages are up in the back, light cords dangle etc. there will not only be silt, there will be permanent damage to the cave.
There's enough of that already and the side mount community should be ashamed of it.
And in small passage there is a 100% chance that bad configuration causes damage and silt outs.
It's just not acceptable and people need to get called out for it.
If they are cave divers they shouldn't have gotten their card in the first place, neither should their instructor.

The bottom line in regards to this thread is that this is not a side mount issue.
Pretty much exactly the same is true for crappy backmount configuration and bad CCR divers whose buoyancy is all over the place. This is how DIR got started, because divers were showing a severe lack of skills in configuring and using their equipment.
In backmount, a fundamentals level standard of diving and streamlining gear has been accepted by the masses, thanks to GUE and DIR. I hope the same will happen for side mount. We need quality, not mediocre divers.

 

[bamafan]

When I went from bm to sm I went to a local instructor who people raved about. He is a good instructor in many aspects but in my opinion pushes a certain gear configuration and only certain products. I asked him for advice on several systems and one of them was the Armadillo. He didn't bash it like he did the Razor or Stealth instead he said this is what I dive the SMS 100 modified. I took a sidemount class from him and thought all was good. A year or two later I met Oliver on one of his sabaticles to the Mill Pond. We started diving together. He does a lot of videos and I was appalled at what I looked like. I had known I had issues getting light at the end of the dive but just ignored this as most of my dives were no more than 2 stages. What I didn't realize was that I was dropping my knees to compensate for this during the dive. I tried several thing such as unmodifing the top of the wing to provide more lift up top. None of this was successful and I couldn't get my knee drop to go away. I came to realize it was a design issue with the SMS. The bungees across the back of the wing and the door handles in top of the wing cause air to bunch up in the middle wing till you get enough air pressure in the wing to overcome these. This was causing an issue for me and I didn't realize it till I saw the videos and was ridiculed some. I bought an Armadillo that I had asked about initially and steered away from and my issues were solved. I have since been looking at lots of people diving the SMS and a lot of them have the same issue. I have dive buddies who are fighting this and are about to change rigs as they have given up trying to fix it.

Anyway if people take things constructively like I did I think they will be a better diver because of it. People generally get angry when criticized and it is the easiest thing to do and ignore your own issues. If you don't care how you look or the damage you do then maybe cave diving isn't for you.

 

[Bennno]

Some people look for an excuse to be an a-hole online and while brave on the internet, often say nothing to the person's face at the dive site.

Pete, you can't compare discussions on a forum to discussions in real life.

Take this SM-sub forum, it's a very confined place in a sense that there are only a few people and I can't get away from them. I can stop reading on the forum altogether but I can't really avoid anybody that's posting.

In real life I don't have to talk to people, that doesn't have anything to do with being 'brave' or not.

Let's say, I find a certain poster super annoying and to be full of s#*t. In real life I would talk to that guy for maybe a couple of minutes and leave ... problem solved. On the forum I can only stop reading on the forum or not. I don't wanna stop reading though because there are lots of people that make great posts.
Makes sense, no?

I tried the 'ignore' function but the problem is that other people react to the ignored person, which makes it hard to follow a discussion, especially when the ignored person posts lots of super long posts in every thread.

I'm not even remotely as confrontational in real live as I'm on a forum (which is probably true for most people), but only because in real life I'm not locked up with people in a small room where I have to listen to every stupid opinion or theory that someone just pulled out of his arse.

There would be only one good solution to this, make me a mod and give me free reign...... either that or more cowbell.

So, as I already said on the first page of this thread, I don't see the problem and I don't think you can compare sidemount to DIR either.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Well if these divers are either instructors or happen to dive inside a cave (or wreck) with their crappy configuration, they should be called out.
There's neither sense in having people spread the crappy SM diver virus by being bad instructors, nor having idiots mess up the cave with their dangly knees, dangly gear and messed up tanks, scisssor/flutter kicks and what not.

I disagree to an extent. While I'm not a big fan of crappy instruction or sloppy configuration, calling people out does nothing to resolve those problems. I much prefer the approach of starting a conversation with someone, asking them why they do things a certain way, and suggesting that I've tried it a different way that works better ... and tell them why it works better. I've found over the years that most folks appreciate helpful tips, while those same people will usually just write you off in a negative way if you "call them out".

We all started at a base level, and optimized our techniques and configuration as we gained experience. I see no reason to criticize those who are behind me on that path, when it benefits everybody who just help them along ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TracyN]

I also fell for the modified SMS 100 is the best and only SM rig you will ever need scheme. Never got a chance to try anything else. Part of that was my fault and the other was the instructor who was pushing his gear as the only gear to get. Then when I got the gear set up I was told not to let anyone touch or modify it nor copy anything else that I saw other people doing because it was pribably the wrong way. So off I went diving my merry way for a couple years not knowing that I really looked like crap. No time was spent modifying the rig specifically for me. What worked for the instructor should have worked for me as well. It wasn't until recently when I saw myself on video how bad the modified SMS made me look. I was appaled and embarrased and went to work immediateely adjusting things. To most people I looked fine and they hadn't even noticed until I said something. However I am a perfectionist and I will not settle for less than good trim and configuration. I had compensatory knee drop and the lollipop pressure gauges were just waiting to put their mark on the cave. This is how I came out if my SM class nothing was ever said and no adjustments were made. After raising the bands, adjusting the leashes, and flipping the tanks and regs so that the spg's sit tight up in my shoulder pockets the rig somewhat works but it still isn't quite right. The only fix is to go to another rig. My point is people and instructors need to get away from the my way is the only way and everybody elses way sucks mentality. Get back to doing what works for individuals. There are a lot of good ideas and concepts out there for people with open minds.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Just trying to get this straight, so forgive me if I misunderstand the current tangent discussion...

An individual sidemount diver received criticism/perceives resentment from backmount divers in their locale. The blame must lie with other sidemount divers, not in that locale, who are "elitist" and causing resentment amongst those backmount divers.

At the same time, most sidemount divers engaged in the thread seem oblivious to any issue and have never encountered any resentment or criticism.

Sounds like an individual issue, not a community problem, to me...?

Bingo.

I'm still trying to figure out why anyone would care what others think about how they choose to dive.

If I see, in person or on the net, unsafe behaviors I'll comment, and no I don't care if this offends someone. Pretty much everybody survives being offended.

If I see, in person or on the net people offering "expert" advice on things they have either never done, or just started doing yesterday I'll comment, and again I don't care if this offends someone.

Outside of that I decided a very long time ago to concern myself only with the opinions of people I had good reason to respect.

Makes life simple.

Tobin

 

[nakatomi]

We all started at a base level, and optimized our techniques and configuration as we gained experience. I see no reason to criticize those who are behind me on that path, when it benefits everybody who just help them along ...

Basically I would agree and it depends on the level people are diving at. Obviously new to side mount divers or lesser experienced divers in open water should be given some slack. Obviously aesthetics are somewhat optional in open water. Not so much in a cave and one shouldn't take a new side mount configuration, a newly acquired CCR card or the first DPV into a cave without being squared away.
Speaking of cave divers, a cave diver should never be at a base level of anything or gather gear experience in a cave. Not in my opinion at least.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

True, you shouldn't go into a cave without being squared away. But calling someone out still isn't going to solve the problem. The first rule of communication is approaching it in such a way that the person you're addressing wants to hear what you have to say ... that's generally true regardless of where it's being done.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Dive-aholic]

Bob, that doesn't work with all personality types. With certain personality types calling someone out on something is all that works. When other methods have been tried and failed and then you call someone out and you get a response it's obvious that is the only thing that will work with that personality. Not everyone is open to constructive critique.

 

[boulderjohn]

Is it my imagination, or has the topic of this thread suddenly switched?

It seems as if we have a group of new participants entering with a new agenda, specifically attacking a specific type of SM gear and those who promote it. That is not what this thread has been about before this AT ALL. What do you say we keep this on topic?