I've read and been told that exercize during decompression (both in the water and for a period after surfacing), that excursive is a bad thing for various reasons. My question is - is prolonged, uncontrolled shivering (like more than 1/2 hour or so), enough "exercising" of the muscles enough to cause the increased bubbling thought to lead to increased risk of DCS?
Is shivering exercize?
- Thread starter Snowbear
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Dr Deco
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Hello snowbear:
Shivering
If the truth were told, I do not know the simple answer to this. When one reaches the point where shivering commences, the blood flow to the extremities has changes from what was tested in the generation of the table/algorithm.
The body is attempting to correct for a reduction in temperature by increasing muscular activity. This will cause adjustments of blood flow. In addition, muscle contraction will probably led to tissue microbubble formation.
Generally speaking, the axiom among professional divers is dive warm, decompress warm and dive cold, decompress cold.
Shivering is a step beyond, and I would suspect strongly that a diver that cold should take steps to see that s/he is not in that situation for several reasons. :cold:
Dr Deco :doctor:
Shivering
If the truth were told, I do not know the simple answer to this. When one reaches the point where shivering commences, the blood flow to the extremities has changes from what was tested in the generation of the table/algorithm.
The body is attempting to correct for a reduction in temperature by increasing muscular activity. This will cause adjustments of blood flow. In addition, muscle contraction will probably led to tissue microbubble formation.
Generally speaking, the axiom among professional divers is dive warm, decompress warm and dive cold, decompress cold.
Shivering is a step beyond, and I would suspect strongly that a diver that cold should take steps to see that s/he is not in that situation for several reasons. :cold:
Dr Deco :doctor:
Starting with the caveat that I'm not a doctor but someone that does a lot of cold-water diving...
Thirty minutes of uncontrolled shivering is an almost certain indicator of hypothermia - a potentially fatal problem and true medical emergency that requires immediate attention. If your choice is between freezing and fizzing, you need medical help. Pronto.
Cold-water diving requires divers to exercise greater care than warm-water diving. Safety requires that cold-water divers stay warm, reduce pO2 limits, and decompress more slowly. At its most extreme, cold-water diving should be considered technical diving due to the additional equipment, training, procedures, and risk it involves.
Cold causes capillaries in the extremities to contract, a two-fold problem for divers: the reduction in blood flow limits the ability of the surrounding tissues to off-gas, thus extending decompression times, and; the smaller capillary diameter makes it more likely that small bubbles will be entrapped in the peripheral tissues, further blocking blood flow and potentially leading to full-blown DCS. Nonetheless, shivering is not recommended as a treatment for hypothermia - getting warm is.
The conflict (and your question) originates in the effect of sudden reheating (through exercise, hot showers, whatever) on the blood supply and off-gassing potential of the peripheral tissues. Remember the Coke analogy: the CO2 suspended in the soda will off-gas slowly at room temperature but will fizz aggressively if the bottle is agitated or warmed quickly. Frighteningly, shivering may effectively combine both.
Stay warm.
Steven
Thirty minutes of uncontrolled shivering is an almost certain indicator of hypothermia - a potentially fatal problem and true medical emergency that requires immediate attention. If your choice is between freezing and fizzing, you need medical help. Pronto.
Cold-water diving requires divers to exercise greater care than warm-water diving. Safety requires that cold-water divers stay warm, reduce pO2 limits, and decompress more slowly. At its most extreme, cold-water diving should be considered technical diving due to the additional equipment, training, procedures, and risk it involves.
Cold causes capillaries in the extremities to contract, a two-fold problem for divers: the reduction in blood flow limits the ability of the surrounding tissues to off-gas, thus extending decompression times, and; the smaller capillary diameter makes it more likely that small bubbles will be entrapped in the peripheral tissues, further blocking blood flow and potentially leading to full-blown DCS. Nonetheless, shivering is not recommended as a treatment for hypothermia - getting warm is.
The conflict (and your question) originates in the effect of sudden reheating (through exercise, hot showers, whatever) on the blood supply and off-gassing potential of the peripheral tissues. Remember the Coke analogy: the CO2 suspended in the soda will off-gas slowly at room temperature but will fizz aggressively if the bottle is agitated or warmed quickly. Frighteningly, shivering may effectively combine both.
Stay warm.
Steven
Your answer makes sense - Thank you Dr Deco
I know staying warm is important, but sometimes nature has ways of sucking the heat right out of a person...Steven - your Coke analogy is pretty much how I was thinking of the situation.
Here's my story - My dives yesterday were great and I stayed reasonably warm! But - bet you knew that was coming
- I apparently slipped and fell on the ice afterwards. You ask why "apparently?" Well - I don't remember the actual incident, but I woke up behind my car, lying on the ice, with a lump on the pariental area of my head, a screaming, nauseating headache, bruise on my hip and I was freezing cold. I don't think I was out long - I checked my computer and it showed a 21min SI since the last dive. Since my gear and drysuit were already off, it was probably less than 10 min. Anyhow, it took most of the 1 1/2 hour drive back to Anchorage to stop shivering, and the rest of the hour home from there before I felt warm. I'm OK now, still a bit of a headache, but the nausea's gone and I'm not bent.
Snowbear,
Very glad to know that you are okay! I'm sure that, in retrospect, it was a frightening, as well as painful experience. Again, glad you are okay!
Very glad to know that you are okay! I'm sure that, in retrospect, it was a frightening, as well as painful experience. Again, glad you are okay!
Watch out for head injury.
You might want to get checked by a Dr if one is near. Head injuries can be strange.
On rewarming, you are not really warmed back up untill you are sweating. Sometimes we feel warm before we are back to normal temp.
Another argument for a buddy or at least a tender.
You might want to get checked by a Dr if one is near. Head injuries can be strange.
On rewarming, you are not really warmed back up untill you are sweating. Sometimes we feel warm before we are back to normal temp.
Another argument for a buddy or at least a tender.
...I really am OK, pipedope. Post 24 hours and no signs of a subdural hematoma. My headache's pretty much gone (though the lump is still kinda tender. I'm glad my gear was off though, or I probably would have really hurt something
BigJet - nope, not frightening - probably 'cause I was too uncomfortable to be scared
I actually had a buddy lined up, but she cancelled at the last minute, so I went anyway. There was an instructor and AOW student leaving the water as I got there, so I had the whole cove to myself with great viz and no this time of year there's very little boat traffic, so no buzzing noises overhead, either. Got some skills practice in and tried out some "new" toys.
BigJet - nope, not frightening - probably 'cause I was too uncomfortable to be scared
I actually had a buddy lined up, but she cancelled at the last minute, so I went anyway. There was an instructor and AOW student leaving the water as I got there, so I had the whole cove to myself with great viz and no this time of year there's very little boat traffic, so no buzzing noises overhead, either. Got some skills practice in and tried out some "new" toys.
divewench
Registered
Given the other signs of hypothermia include a loss of gross coordination, dulling of the brain, and lack of control of fine motor functions, you might have been in the initial stages before you hit the ice. I've been wondering weather putting the little chemical hand warmers in the pockets of my undergarmet would help keep me warm. My only fear is that I would be driven crazy by the one hot spot while the rest of me freezes.
I don't think so - I was reasonably warm during and between dives, had taken all my gear off, but still had my thinsulate undies, polypro under that, a hat (which apparently came off in the fall, though) and gloves on. It was cold (~14F, but there was no wind (unlike a blustery ~12F with 20+ Kt wind today - now THAT was cold, but I didn't get hypothermic?) It was EXTREMELY icy in the parking area (same as it was today
), so I was being careful. I'm pretty sure I didn't pass out, but hit my head and was knocked out - as evidenced by the still-tender bump! I think lying on the ice not moving is what got me so cold. As to staying warm during dives - Argon is a good thing!
As a paramedic you gotta ask yourself... which came first the fall or the unconsciousness? You did ask that of yourself didn't you?
So... how's your sugar?
So... how's your sugar?
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