Is selling Life Support Equipment on the Net Ethical ?

[Firewalker]

Firewalker, you have accused the internet based suppliers of Cherrypicking, but the truth is that if you have a client that comes into your store, listens to your sales pitch and then walks out and buys it from leisurepro.com, then you blew the sale. You failed to close, lining is not selling. Closing is selling.

Telling aint selling dude, and every time a client walks into your store a sale is made. Either you sell an item of equipment to the client, or he/she sells you a reason that you are not competitive with your legitimate, but online competition.

I think the reason that internet sales are growing is that people are less likely to trust retail sales people these days. They research and know what they want, then they shop around for the most convienient and best value for money deal, and if they can do this while sitting in front of the TV in their underwear and fluffy slippers, even better.

Lamenting the fact that a dive light or a pair of booties should not be sold over the internet beacause it is "life support equipment" is a load of bollox, and a regulator is easier to put together than your average kids bicycle.

This whole thread makes you sound like a protectionist whiner that is too lazy to get off his butt and confront retail dynamics.

Get with the program or get left behind dude.

Can'tcom Mike, you say you are an instructor (you have your little ego banner on your post)? Answer me a couple or questions: is it ethical for a dive instructor to sell life support equipment (tanks, Regulators, BC's, computers) to a unceritified person? Is it ethical as a dive instructor to sell air to an unceritified person ( Someone who is going to use it to go underwater)? Is it ethical for a dive instructor to sell a ceritifed person life support equipment (tank, Regulators, BC, Computers) without giving the education needed to use these units safely?
Those are the real question about internet sales. It has nothing to do with retail dynamics. Internet sales accounts for less then 5% of the total sales nationwide.
But, you are right, it does have to do with protectionism, protection of the dive community as a whole (from the internet predators).

Firewalker

 

[bwerb]

Dude...give your head a shake!

If "less than 5%" of the dive community is at risk...and accordingly if they are not certified (which I'd estimate is so few as to be insignificant)...then...natural selection is allowed to work.

And...if they aren't certified...I'd suggest they likely don't have the compressors at home to fill their tanks which shipped empty...so back to the LDS...where you have another chance to prove your shop is worth spending money at.

 

[Xanthro]

Answer me a couple or questions: is it ethical for a dive instructor to sell life support equipment (tanks, Regulators, BC's, computers) to a unceritified person?

Yes, already been answered numerous times on this very thread. Repeating something doesn't give it validity.

The purchase of equipment doesn't require a C-card, nor should it, since as has been stated previously, this means that people wouldn't be able to purchase Scuba gifts for divers.

Is it ethical as a dive instructor to sell air to an unceritified person ( Someone who is going to use it to go underwater)?

No, because the standards are you need a C-Card for air. While it is legal to sell air to anyone, it would violate the standards the industry agrees to, hence, it would be unethical.

No, I dare you to show me one internet only sale of air for Scuba diving!!

Is it ethical for a dive instructor to sell a ceritifed person life support equipment (tank, Regulators, BC, Computers) without giving the education needed to use these units safely?

Yes of course it is. Maybe your training is horrible, but a certified person means that person is qualified to dive, which includes familiarity with equipment. If you can't figure out a regulator or a BCD then you shouldn't be diving. If there is a specific question a diver has about a piece of equipment, then it is the responsibility of the diver to ask.

Not once has a LDS showed me how to use basic Scuba equipment, I'd be insulted if they thought I needed to be shown how to use a regulator.

Those are the real question about internet sales. It has nothing to do with retail dynamics. Internet sales accounts for less then 5% of the total sales nationwide.
But, you are right, it does have to do with protectionism, protection of the dive community as a whole (from the internet predators).
Firewalker

Internet predators?? LOL.

None of your questions have anything to do with whether internet sales are ethical, in fact some only apply to a LDS. Air sales over the internet is quite the stretch even for you.

Maybe you think people are idiots, because you keep stating that the Dive community needs protection as a whole. IT DOES NOT!!!!

I do not need nor want anyone trying to take responsibilty for my protection in diving, that responsibilty lies solely and entirely with myself.

Xanthro

 

[Mako Mark]

Im not biting firewalker,

This was a poorly disguised attempt to have a whine about loss of profits to a business model that is meeting the needs of divers better than yours is. You got flamed for it and now you are backtracking to your argument regarding safety to recover some dignity.

My status as an instructor is of no consequence to this argument. My understanding of freemarket econimics is! Unless of course you are saying that even though I am an instructor, I still need your permission to purchase a pair of wetsuit booties? Who made you the diving police?

Where there is a demand, there will be a supply that meets that demand. Divers are demanding that the additional cost of retail mark up is not worth the additional service that you claim is so essential.

There is no law that states you have to be a certified diver to purchase dive equipment, however my experience is that few people are imprudent enough to try diving without instruction, and when they do, it is not with equipment they have bought online or from a retail outlet, it is with borrowed equipment lent them by a fellow diver!

Falling back to your argument about life support equipment is codswallop. You should be delighted that people are buying dive gear, the more divers there are, the more they will need your services, unless of course they can find better service and better value for money elsewhere.

 

[yknot]

From now on, when I think of big ticket items at a LDS, I'd like to think of them as "lifestyle support equipment". And BTW, I can't think of a business that isn't all about the numbers- from my local hospital to major appliance store to discount retailer. Why does scuba gear deserve a free pass? Who is being more unethical, the internet-only source selling gear at a discount to anyone with a credit card or a LDS selling HUB's (at retail) to newly certified divers, while telling them what a great piece of gear it is?

 

[Firewalker]

Im not biting firewalker,

This was a poorly disguised attempt to have a whine about loss of profits to a business model that is meeting the needs of divers better than yours is. You got flamed for it and now you are backtracking to your argument regarding safety to recover some dignity.

My status as an instructor is of no consequence to this argument. My understanding of freemarket econimics is! Unless of course you are saying that even though I am an instructor, I still need your permission to purchase a pair of wetsuit booties? Who made you the diving police?

Where there is a demand, there will be a supply that meets that demand. Divers are demanding that the additional cost of retail mark up is not worth the additional service that you claim is so essential.

There is no law that states you have to be a certified diver to purchase dive equipment, however my experience is that few people are imprudent enough to try diving without instruction, and when they do, it is not with equipment they have bought online or from a retail outlet, it is with borrowed equipment lent them by a fellow diver!

Falling back to your argument about life support equipment is codswallop. You should be delighted that people are buying dive gear, the more divers there are, the more they will need your services, unless of course they can find better service and better value for money elsewhere.

Mark I can walk through the flames. And I have not changed my question about the ethics of selling Scuba. But it is funny to watch everyone dance around it. And you didn'tanswer my question. So I will restate it. As an instructor, is it ethical to sell life support equipment to an unceritified person (Tanks, Regulators, BC, computers, not mask, fins, Boots,and snorkel,but life support equipment). As an instructor is it ethical to not educate a ceritified dive in the sit and use of life support equipment they are selling.

Firewalker

 

[bwerb]

Is it ethical to allow those with serious reading comprehension issues to continue to post?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Mark I can walk through the flames. And I have not changed my question about the ethics of selling Scuba. But it is funny to watch everyone dance around it. And you didn'tanswer my question. So I will restate it. As an instructor, is it ethical to sell life support equipment to an unceritified person (Tanks, Regulators, BC, computers, not mask, fins, Boots,and snorkel,but life support equipment). As an instructor is it ethical to not educate a ceritified dive in the sit and use of life support equipment they are selling.

Firewalker

I think you're the one dancing around. Where do you get this stuff?

There are no agency standards or insurance restrictions preventing you from selling equipment to noncertified divers.

Haven't you ever had a nondiver buy a reg as a gift for aome one? Why would the nondiver need instruction on it's use?

Why would a trained diver need you to tell them how to use their new reg, bc or computer?

If dive shops did a better job of training divers maybe they wouldn't see them as being so helpless. LOL

 

[Lat. Adjustment]

The dive shop that certified me apparently pumped water into the tanks because my steel 72's didn't last 4 years. They are now closed but I heard that was because the owner showed up for classes stoned.
My LDS doesn't stock much, doesn't seem to even read the catologs to know what's available, has never gotten in anything I've asked them to order, when I've asked for prices I've been blown off, "you don't want steel tanks, they're expensive!" and "coated weights, that will be whatever the MSRP is plus freight!".
I stopped taking my gear to them for service after they broke my SPG and just said "oh well". I don't know how they are still in business!?
There is another shop about an hour away where I go to buy things that need to be fitted but for the rest it's LP.
There is a shop in Florida I use when I'm down there that's well stocked and knowledgeable, they know me and my kids needs even though they only see me a few times a year and I don't mind spending a little more to walk out with gear in hand.
If a shop wants my money they need to earn it, not beg!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Now if you argued the ethics of the equipment vendors that prevent the LDS from competing then you may have a valid arguement.

What about the ethics of equipment vendors who cater to one LDS by denying a competing LDS to carry their products.

A new LDS opens in an area ... and suddenly an established one down the street is on the phone to his vendors. "We did $xxxxx worth of business last year. If you want that to continue, you won't grant this new guy a distributorship." ... and the new guy doesn't get it.

It's called "restriction of free trade" ... and the dive industry seems to be about the only one I can think of where it's accepted practice.

Costs a certain drysuit manufacturer my business recently ... I really wanted one of their suits, but not from the LDS I was essentially being forced to buy it from. So rather than cave to this insanity, I just bought a different make of suit.

Unethical? Probably.

Stupid way to do business? Definitely ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)