Is selling Life Support Equipment on the Net Ethical ?

[perpet1]

Mark I can walk through the flames. And I have not changed my question about the ethics of selling Scuba. But it is funny to watch everyone dance around it. And you didn'tanswer my question. So I will restate it. As an instructor, is it ethical to sell life support equipment to an unceritified person (Tanks, Regulators, BC, computers, not mask, fins, Boots,and snorkel,but life support equipment). As an instructor is it ethical to not educate a ceritified dive in the sit and use of life support equipment they are selling.

Firewalker

Get real! Most industries (including those that sell life support equipment) have salesmen that have little or no prectical expereince using the equipment they sell and as such have no busines training the people that buy the equipment how to use it. Even in the dive industry you will find many shops that have sales associates that do not really know the details regarding the use of the equipment they sell.

The way I read your arguement is that you believe all life support equipment should only be sold by knowledgeable dealers. This is so that the dealer can adaquately train the buyer on the use of the product. Horsepucky!

Next time you buy a life preserver at Walmart you will need to make sure thet you get a proper indoctrination in its use as using your definition, if a BC is life support then a life preserver is just as much life support equipment. Or is it unethical for Walmart to sell life preservers since their staff are not experts in the use of the life preserver?


By the way, as an Instructor I do believe that there is nothing wrong with somone selling or buying scuba gear online. Afterall, it is not up to the sales person to train the buyer on the use of the product in the first place.

 

[cornfed]

So I will restate it.

Good, then I'll do the same...

As an instructor is it ethical to not educate a ceritified dive in the sit and use of life support equipment they are selling.

As I stated some 60+ posts ago, "If someone is unable to attach their regulator to a tank and breath their instructor is fair more culpable than the person that sold it to them." You seem to be unable to decouple sales from education. The two are totally seperate things.

 

[Xanthro]

Mark I can walk through the flames. And I have not changed my question about the ethics of selling Scuba. But it is funny to watch everyone dance around it. And you didn'tanswer my question. So I will restate it. As an instructor, is it ethical to sell life support equipment to an unceritified person (Tanks, Regulators, BC, computers, not mask, fins, Boots,and snorkel,but life support equipment). As an instructor is it ethical to not educate a ceritified dive in the sit and use of life support equipment they are selling.

Firewalker

While you have not changed your mind, you also haven't defended your postion. All you do is keep stating the same thing over and over as if repetition alone will allow you to prevail. It will not work here.

Your questions have been answered numerous times, you just do not like the answer so you keep posing the same question.

Plus, your question are inane which is why people consider you nothing more than a troll.

For the last time, there is nothing unethical about selling Scuba equipment to uncertified people. In fact, you have to have some equipment before you even start your class, contrary to your statement, a mask is more vital to diving than is a computer. I purchased all my major equipment BEFORE I was certified, that way I was training on the same equipment I would use. Using your logic, not only couldn't uncertified people buy gifts for scuba divers, divers couldn't even buy the starting equipment they need.

I cannot imagine how poorly your instruction must be that you think a certified person needs to be told the regulator goes in the mouth. If you are certified, then you should already know how to use the equipment, you should not need any further instruction. If the diver does, it is the divers responsibility to ask, and internet sales can provide that answer as quickly and throughly as an LDS.

Xanthro

 

[Mako Mark]

Mark .... you didn'tanswer my question. So I will restate it. As an instructor, is it ethical to sell life support equipment to an unceritified person (Tanks, Regulators, BC, computers, not mask, fins, Boots,and snorkel,but life support equipment). As an instructor is it ethical to not educate a ceritified dive in the sit and use of life support equipment they are selling.

Firewalker

I would sell a regulator or BCD to anyone that wants one. If I were to discobver during the sale that they were not certified, I would inform them that they would be prudent to take training in the use of the equipment, however if I didnt, the warning lables and disclaimers on the equipment would!

.

 

[asmith5]

I paid a lot of money and spent a lot of time to get my OW certification. That certification means that I have passed a set of tests that shows I have the knowledge to dive safely on my own. I do not want to be forced to use a local dive shop if they don't trust me to set up my own equipment. If the dive shop that I trained at would steer me away from buying online for any reason other than adding to their own profit margin, I would rethink the quality of training I paid for and received and look for an alternate source. I will always use a good LDS for service and will try to purchase as much of my equipment from them as well. However, I am not going to purchase equipment if I don't feel good about the service after the sale, or I can find it at a drastically reduced price on the internet. If I wanted a dive shop carding me and treating me like I don't know what I am doing, I will forget about the certification and dive with instructors everytime. I paid for the training so that I had more freedom. I understand being carded for air, but equipment is pretty easy to assemble once you have done it once. I don't want someone telling me I can't buy a wetsuit from them because I don't have my C-card. In the days of the internet many divers will already know what they need/want when they walk in the door. We just want to try them on for fit, pay for it, and hit the water.

I think you should rethink your business model and consider joining the rest of the world in the computer age. A company that sells both in retail stores and on the internet and sees a 5% increase is seeing 5% more revnue than you are seeing. Forget about the whole "ethics" of it. If you are selling a reliable product you should not have to worry. Hell, you can put a disclaimer on the checkout button that says something along the lines of "By submitting this order you aknowledge that you are certified and will not hold "your company here" liable for any damages or injuries caused by misuse or neglect of the equipment." Your *** is then covered and it is up to the user to be responsible. It would be more the fault of the business that filled their air tank, or loaned them a tank if anything happened. Operating a vehicle requires a liscense, but they don't ask me for a drivers liscense when I go in and pick up a set of brake pads (life support) for my car. Why should diving be the same way?

Sorry for the super long post. The business person in me was really lashing out. Safety is important, but I don't see how Internet retailers are jeopardizing it in any way.

Andrew

 

[scubafool]

The greater danger to divers is the shops & instructors who certify people as divers that are not capable of safely performing dives on their own. Yet here we are complaining about retailers selling diving equipment over the internet. What the heck does it matter whether someone is "ceritfied" or not when the ceritfication itself is so meaningless? Granted, there are instructors out there turning out competent divers, but until that is the norm, your whole argument is baseless.

 

[scubasean]

I keep wanting to respond, then I remember I must....

Stop....feeding....the......troll........

:banana:

 

[DPJ]

Is it ethical to allow those with serious reading comprehension issues to continue to post?

Kill the thread and put us out of our misery. :reaper:

 

[pennypue]

Thank you to all who have fed the troll as it has permitted me to study its behavior.

The LDS is where the new blood is introduced to the scuba, it’s where the first impressions are formed. There will always be LDS, and we will be doing retail long after this “New Business Model” is gone.

Firewalker

I'm a new diver. I was not introduced to scuba through an LDS. (I was certified in Mexico by a private instructor) I have not used them for an airfill. (my dive buddy has a compressor and likes to keep me breathing so he can dive with me again. ) I did buy booties from one. I needed them fast. (my dive buddy has a full kit that I use. YES, he is the best. Best equipment I have used yet and a 7m wetsuit too.)

And my first impression of two LDS's have not been good, a third was neutral. One had zero knowledge and was useless. No purchase. The second immediately tried to push split fins without even knowing what kind of diving I would be doing or prefer. No purchase, didn't sign up for AOW class. The third sold me my booties, very fast and efficient. (Good Lord, why are they ALL black?????) OHHHH MIKE FERRARA??????? I'm in Cincinnati, I'll be looking for a referral to an AOW instructor.....

Where will the rest of my equipment come from? Most likely Larry at ScubaToys.com. I have read many posts from him on this board and never once have I caught a hint of any thing less than perfect professionalism. I've not read one post of a dissatisfied customer. Now, firewalker, you may assume that is because the dissatisfied ones drowned, but I truly believe we would have heard about that several times over. My daughter and I will be needing a full set of 'life support'. I believe that business will be going to Larry. (despite what he looks like in his sketch......Larry, couldn't you have showered and shaved???)

Firewalker, I have no doubt that customers in your store receive good service. Why not make that service better and available to more people and carry a wider selection? Larry has been very gracious to offer to meet with you and speak with you regarding his business. WOW!!! You could go online and become a competitor of his with the information you could learn from just ONE (most likely tax deductible) trip. But I don't think he's afraid of the competition because, from all I have seen and heard, Larry gives first class service.

FEED THE TROLLS!!!! :lol2: They're so cute and furry.......especially when they knash their teeth. :splat:

 

[Nomaster]

Larry, I have been in business here at Scuba Toys and Schools Inc. since 1980. We have our own building and have a pool and classroom on site. We teach Basic though instructor and have Course Director on site. WE were among the first to sell nitrox and trimix, (in SoCal) and have had tech training since the med. 90’s. Our retail business is busy (and I will only sell the best equipment on the market).
This business has been and still is successful. The key to a successful Dive Store is good instruction, good gear, service, and expertise (being friendly to your customer helps and keeping a low overhead also helps)...

Firewalker

I looked and found that your stated business is real. If you're as ethical as you believe and as well established as you say, by joining the internet market you could give your local divers a much better price because of your increased sales volume, and you might be protecting some divers from getting their equipment from less ethical internet marketers. Further you would have your own forum to preach the gospel of diving as you see it.
Personally, I just don't see how you or your customers could lose by your joining the twenty-first century. And, based on your contentions here, you would be doing many divers you will never see in your shop, a great service by informing them about their equipment, advising them about their purchases, and having a larger possibility of positively impacting the industry through your greater success.
Gee, seems that there are a couple such companies already out there, so you don't even have to be a ground breaker, you can benefit from their frontiersmanship. Very little R & D investment since it's already a proven ground.
But, well, it's your choice.

I've read further.
I see that rather than being excluded, you are being included in spite of what I perceive as an "angry-man" posture on your part. (I'm often an "angry-man" so I get certain vibes when I conjecture that I am among others of my wont.)
I hope you are reading this thread for the great ideas you can use and the needs that you can/could fulfill if you enlargeand expand your business.
I doubt anyone on this board would begrudge you increased success and profit.
And, if you begin to see the internet market "taking a dive" (get it?) you can always sell down your inventory and return to your LDS only business format.

Tom