Is selling Life Support Equipment on the Net Ethical ?

[Nomaster]

Mark I can walk through the flames. And I have not changed my question about the ethics of selling Scuba. But it is funny to watch everyone dance around it. And you didn'tanswer my question. So I will restate it. As an instructor, is it ethical to sell life support equipment to an unceritified person (Tanks, Regulators, BC, computers, not mask, fins, Boots,and snorkel,but life support equipment). As an instructor is it ethical to not educate a ceritified dive in the sit and use of life support equipment they are selling.
Firewalker

It is ethical to sell to an adult over 18 y/o.
I'm an adult over 18 y/o and give you permission to sell to me.
Don't tell me that I'm a moron because I'm not you.
I can and will learn. My brain is open to new knowledge.
I am able to assimilate new knowledge.
I am an adult.
Notice that I continue to use the title of adult? Notice that I place an age on it? The age is a legal CYA. some people are smarter and more adult before they are 18 y/o, but the law tells them they are not responsible for themselves.
We who mave more years (but maybe not as well informed) are responsible for them, so it is not legal to sell to them... (unless they have their c-card?).
So, I cannot give you permission to sell to someone under 18, and they cannot give you permission to sell to them.
Don't think for me if you're not prepared to think for yourself.
While you were walking through the fire and did not open your brain to the knowledge, did you at least notice that the fire was hot and you should stay away from it unless you are properly equipped?
You don't seem properly equipped.

Tom

 

[Nomaster]

Is it ethical to allow those with serious reading comprehension issues to continue to post?

If they're over 18 y/o, they can choose for themselves, but I'm wondering now whether I should be protected from them.
Can I remove my right to think for myself?
OH! Of course I can, I'm an American.
(Should I remove that last statement?)
(Is it too hot -did I finally get to hot?)

Tom

 

[Nomaster]

Thank you to all who have fed the troll as it has permitted me to study its behavior.
....
Where will the rest of my equipment come from? Most likely Larry at ScubaToys.com. I have read many posts from him on this board and never once have I caught a hint of any thing less than perfect professionalism. I've not read one post of a dissatisfied customer. Now, firewalker, you may assume that is because the dissatisfied ones drowned, but I truly believe we would have heard about that several times over. My daughter and I will be needing a full set of 'life support'. I believe that business will be going to Larry. (despite what he looks like in his sketch......Larry, couldn't you have showered and shaved???)

Firewalker, I have no doubt that customers in your store receive good service. Why not make that service better and available to more people and carry a wider selection? Larry has been very gracious to offer to meet with you and speak with you regarding his business. WOW!!! You could go online and become a competitor of his with the information you could learn from just ONE (most likely tax deductible) trip. But I don't think he's afraid of the competition because, from all I have seen and heard, Larry gives first class service.

FEED THE TROLLS!!!! :lol2: They're so cute and furry.......especially when they knash their teeth. :splat:

I said some of that, wish I'd said the rest.
But then, she said it all first.
I was gnashing my teeth.
Thanks for my edification Mr. troll guy.

Tom

 

[Kim]

So let's get this straight. You think internet sales are unethical - so you don't like LP for instance? You think they should open a real store? Would it be more ethical if they did? Next door to you?

 

[Knavey]

Pretty sure LP has a storefront in NY.

 

[scubasean]

So let's get this straight. You think internet sales are unethical - so you don't like LP for instance? You think they should open a real store? Would it be more ethical if they did? Next door to you?

I think they have one already...heh...just not next door to his shop.

 

[Keysdrifter454]

Pretty sure LP has a storefront in NY.

Never miss it when I dive up there.

It's on the second story, over a mail order camera shop they own.

They prowl the internet, too.

Never spamming, I've seen them respond to different complaints in other forums.

After one bad incident (which they proactively remind me of, apologetically), they've gone out of their way to do me the right way.

 

[tpabchbum]

I only read about half of the posts, it was all I can take. I don't own a dive shop, but I do work for one. You guys must not have very good dive shops. We push education throughout your diving life. I (nor anyone who works at our dive shop) is a used car salesman, we enjoy our integrity above all. We are not in the business of selling you the "best" equipment out there. We are in the business of selling you the "best equipment out there for you".

People who pay the extra money to buy from a dive shop do so b/c they know that they are paying for the service after the sale. They will always buy from dive shops, b/c they don't trust the internet. People who buy from the internet do so to save $$$, which is totally fine, in fact even logical. However, what you are going to find, and this is starting to happen all over the place in Florida, is dive shops being able to tell if you are in just looking and then going to buy off the internet. THOSE PEOPLE GET ZERO TIME, ZERO ANSWERS, AND ZERO CUSTOMER SERVICE. Also, bring in a reg bought off the internet for us to put together, $150 bucks, buy a reg from us, FREE CHECKUPS B/C SERVICE. Bring in a reg with a problem and we will ask you why you didn't take to the place where you bought it, most people will say they bought it from a dive shop where they used to live, so we ask the name of the shop and check the website of the manufacturer to see if they are a dealer, WE ARE NOT STUPID. If there is not dealer by that name in that town, we hand it back to them and ask them how they like the internet now and maybe they should send it back to have the problem fixed. This only works b/c most of the shops in our area do the same, the ones that don't bring us the regs when they screw them up.

Also, the people who said it are right; there is no agency that requires a c-card to buy gear. Other than certifications and tank/air regulations the diving industry is a self-regulated industry. SO BE FOREWARNED, W/O YOUR LDSs, the diving industry won't last. Most people can't afford compressors, can't afford to maintain them in a manner that is consistent with safe practices. Also, most people don't have the resources (or won't when dive shops go belly up) to get the info, or supplies they need to service their own gear.

All that being said, I have bought a lot of dive gear off the internet; Fins, masks, snorkels, boots, gloves, hoods, wetsuits. I draw the line at something that needs to be serviced and especially draw the line at used gear b/c you never know what you are going to get. Used gear at dive shops has been checked out, serviced and is safe.

In closing I just want to say that I am sorry that most of you feel that your LDS people are trying to job you. Although I am more worried that these people (the LDS owners) haven't learned to respect their customers more and would push for you guys to find a dive shop that you trust and respect. There are many intangibles that come along with person to person contact. Most of our customers actually seek us out for advice on local dive spots, vis reports, travel and equipment advice (what do you think the best way to do this or configure this is, or I am thinking about buying this what do you think) and we make a living telling them what we think the truth is. We also make sure they know that this is in no means a fact, just our opinion.

Good Luck in the future and I hope you all enjoy your future diving experiences.

Now to answer the question is it ethical, depends who you ask. Just remeber that a percentage of the people who sell on the internet don't dive or know anything about diving. They don't check their gear. As a matter of fact I know someone who thought they were buying a ScubaPro reg off an internet site (no I won't name the site) and got a Scubapro body with some other guts.

 

[Firefyter]

We are in the business of selling you the "best equipment out there for you".

Bull....you're in the business to turn a profit, pure and simple. If I want a Mares Abyss reg and all you carry is Scubapro, you're going to try to sell me the Scubapro and you're gonna give me lots of reasons why it's better. LDS's never admit that a brand they don't carry is better than the ones they do carry.

However, what you are going to find, and this is starting to happen all over the place in Florida, is dive shops being able to tell if you are in just looking and then going to buy off the internet. THOSE PEOPLE GET ZERO TIME, ZERO ANSWERS, AND ZERO CUSTOMER SERVICE.

So, you just run off the potential customers without even trying to sell to them....no wonder shops like these are going out of business. Instead of courting my business and trying to win my trust, confidence, and loyalty, you're gonna run me off because I'm a shopper and not a blind lemming...real smart.

SO BE FOREWARNED, W/O YOUR LDSs, the diving industry won't last. Most people can't afford compressors, can't afford to maintain them in a manner that is consistent with safe practices. Also, most people don't have the resources (or won't when dive shops go belly up) to get the info, or supplies they need to service their own gear.

Again, BS. As long as there is a market, someone will fill it. You can already get certified without an LDS, there are several options for air fills without an LDS, and as long as there are regs to repair, someone will fill that niche. If you don't adapt to the marketplace, you will find yourself out of it.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Also, bring in a reg bought off the internet for us to put together, $150 bucks, buy a reg from us, FREE CHECKUPS B/C SERVICE.

I see. So your price to put a reg together is dependant on where the reg was purchased? I thought you valued your integrity? How much do you charge to put a reg together when the owner tells you that where they baught it is none of your business?

Bring in a reg with a problem and we will ask you why you didn't take to the place where you bought it, most people will say they bought it from a dive shop where they used to live, so we ask the name of the shop and check the website of the manufacturer to see if they are a dealer, WE ARE NOT STUPID.

Why do you care where they baught it? Why do you think that you even have a right to know? If the warrentee is not valid then, fine, charge full boat. It sounds like you would like to charge way more than full price though just to punish the customer for not buying from you or another shop. I thought you said that you valued integrity?

If there is not dealer by that name in that town, we hand it back to them and ask them how they like the internet now and maybe they should send it back to have the problem fixed. This only works b/c most of the shops in our area do the same, the ones that don't bring us the regs when they screw them up.

So, you're saying that the shops in your area work together to try to force divers to buy from you?

I would at this point like to recommend Vance Harlows excelent book on reg repair. I'd also suggest that for a few bucks you could get the tools you need and , if so inclined, you can do your own service. The next step is to only buy regs from shops and manufacturers that will sell parts and repair manuals to support the products they sell.

In that way they can choke off those using these extortion like tactics to sell dive equipment.

Also, the people who said it are right; there is no agency that requires a c-card to buy gear. Other than certifications and tank/air regulations the diving industry is a self-regulated industry. SO BE FOREWARNED, W/O YOUR LDSs, the diving industry won't last.

Not true. The dive industry will just change and it's about time.

All that being said, I have bought a lot of dive gear off the internet; Fins, masks, snorkels, boots, gloves, hoods, wetsuits. I draw the line at something that needs to be serviced and especially draw the line at used gear b/c you never know what you are going to get. Used gear at dive shops has been checked out, serviced and is safe.

Since you just work at a shop and I used to own one I have to tell you that you aren't helping your shop here. Some of the goods with the highest margines are the ones that you say that you have baught off the net.

In closing I just want to say that I am sorry that most of you feel that your LDS people are trying to job you. Although I am more worried that these people (the LDS owners) haven't learned to respect their customers more and would push for you guys to find a dive shop that you trust and respect.

Do you think you are respecting your customers by trying to force them to by from you with threats of refusing to provide service or charging extra high prices?

Now to answer the question is it ethical, depends who you ask. Just remeber that a percentage of the people who sell on the internet don't dive or know anything about diving. They don't check their gear. As a matter of fact I know someone who thought they were buying a ScubaPro reg off an internet site (no I won't name the site) and got a Scubapro body with some other guts.

Why do you have to be a diver to sell a reg? I've got news, a vast majority of people working in and owning dive shops barely qualify as divers. In fact I've known dive shop owners and employees who don't dive...and others that shouldn't. LOL

I've been in Manufacturing for a long time and can tell you that a product should be tested before it's sold. We don't need sales people to test products. Clearly the answer here is to teach divers how to check the IP, tweak the cracking pressure and check a reg for leaks in entry level classes. you know? Just like the owner of a car needs to be able to check the pressure in their tires.