or another reference?
Is It Time For A DIR Forum???
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You are correct Sir.
Chad
Chad
Popeye
Contributor
You have a general picture of DIR, but are very hazy on the specifics.
John, if you wanna cut through the haze, buy the intro book. What you hear about DIR on the boards can vary greatly in accuracy. It's only about $20, and has a clearer view of the philosophies. I'm a recreational diver for the most part, and while hardly DIR, I dive a backplate and long hose.
DIR readily admits there isn't much new information regarding gear configuration. They identify more with Hogarthian than anything.
Time after time you see favorable results from the DIR-L classes, and I'd guess the majority of the studii are recreational divers.
The book is well worth the money, and DIR has something for everyone.
but not the philosphy.
I've only been on the boards a month or so. Couldn't help but notice this thing called DIR. What the heck is DIR.? First thing that came to mind was what it stood for.
I find it somewhat surprising how much dissention and bickering goes on. First, I'd like to point out that it is my observation that there are a few individuals that will pick the DIR fight just to do it. There are others that will cordially explain the differences & similarities. Not really any different than every aspect of life.
Some of you may have seen the thread I started regarding training. There were arguments about how militaristic it was, and a weed out program...yaawwwn...etc. Thing is, much of that class back in the 70's is exactly what I hear the DIR guys preaching.
Planning, situational awareness, physiology and physics of fluid & gas dymanics, hydrodynamics. Understanding that it's an inherently dangerous sport. Thing is, they just don't teach it at the entry level anymore.
A lot of the things I've seen about it are concepts that either lingered in the back of my mind after 30 years, or the nature of my general mindset.
I hadn't thought about a long hose, but will certaianly be considering it. I naturally prefer to give my primary away to the guys that's out of control.
I don't dive a BP/Wing, but I do dive a wieght integrated BC with no pockets, back inflating, and have everything strapped down or tucked away to minimize drag. (This didn't come from dive training~ the concept of drag and aerodynamics is not indigenous to the DIR crowd. Race car drivers and pilots have a little knowledge aboutit as well)
I'm still working on the weighting for a new drysuit, but I don't have the tank rolling problem that someone else remarked about somewhere else on this thread. I would agree the traditional jacket style BC doesn't allow for proper trimming. I've dove rentals that I just couldn't see why anyone would buy. I can't stand for my BC to turn me upright. I have alwasy preferred to dive with my ankles a little high Isn't that a fundamental concept of DIR?
In a nutshell, although I have a lot to learn about DIR, I doubt that I'll personally ever go "all the way" with it. I'm just getting too old. 20 years ago (when I was beating up my knees as a ski bum) I would've been right there. But that doesn't mean I'm unwilling or unable to pick and choose what concepts & principles are appropriate to my diving regimen and apply them.
I think that both sides could do a little better job of being more understanding of the other's situation. I've seen a lot of posts from people that are just starting out. Many,if not most, are probably not ex-military, or former athletes. They are just plain run of the mill people interested in getting involved in this spectacular sport. A positve word of encouragement without being berated for their lack of experience will go along way toward the future of thesport.
On the other hand, I've also seen posts from what are obviously non-DIR types that condemn the DIR crowd like they're a renegade bunch of Hell's Angels or something to be avoided like the plague. I don't belive that for a minute. I think they have a tremendous amount of collective knowledge to share with everyone.
I'd like to learn as much as I can about it. Unfortunately, I live i a place that isn't exactly crawling with educational opportunities. Hence my great pleasure at finding the Scuba Board. I doubt it will help, but I, for one, would like to see the rhetoric toned down a bit ~ on both sides!
I've only been on the boards a month or so. Couldn't help but notice this thing called DIR. What the heck is DIR.? First thing that came to mind was what it stood for.
I find it somewhat surprising how much dissention and bickering goes on. First, I'd like to point out that it is my observation that there are a few individuals that will pick the DIR fight just to do it. There are others that will cordially explain the differences & similarities. Not really any different than every aspect of life.
Some of you may have seen the thread I started regarding training. There were arguments about how militaristic it was, and a weed out program...yaawwwn...etc. Thing is, much of that class back in the 70's is exactly what I hear the DIR guys preaching.
Planning, situational awareness, physiology and physics of fluid & gas dymanics, hydrodynamics. Understanding that it's an inherently dangerous sport. Thing is, they just don't teach it at the entry level anymore.
A lot of the things I've seen about it are concepts that either lingered in the back of my mind after 30 years, or the nature of my general mindset.
I hadn't thought about a long hose, but will certaianly be considering it. I naturally prefer to give my primary away to the guys that's out of control.
I don't dive a BP/Wing, but I do dive a wieght integrated BC with no pockets, back inflating, and have everything strapped down or tucked away to minimize drag. (This didn't come from dive training~ the concept of drag and aerodynamics is not indigenous to the DIR crowd. Race car drivers and pilots have a little knowledge aboutit as well)
I'm still working on the weighting for a new drysuit, but I don't have the tank rolling problem that someone else remarked about somewhere else on this thread. I would agree the traditional jacket style BC doesn't allow for proper trimming. I've dove rentals that I just couldn't see why anyone would buy. I can't stand for my BC to turn me upright. I have alwasy preferred to dive with my ankles a little high Isn't that a fundamental concept of DIR?
In a nutshell, although I have a lot to learn about DIR, I doubt that I'll personally ever go "all the way" with it. I'm just getting too old. 20 years ago (when I was beating up my knees as a ski bum) I would've been right there. But that doesn't mean I'm unwilling or unable to pick and choose what concepts & principles are appropriate to my diving regimen and apply them.
I think that both sides could do a little better job of being more understanding of the other's situation. I've seen a lot of posts from people that are just starting out. Many,if not most, are probably not ex-military, or former athletes. They are just plain run of the mill people interested in getting involved in this spectacular sport. A positve word of encouragement without being berated for their lack of experience will go along way toward the future of thesport.
On the other hand, I've also seen posts from what are obviously non-DIR types that condemn the DIR crowd like they're a renegade bunch of Hell's Angels or something to be avoided like the plague. I don't belive that for a minute. I think they have a tremendous amount of collective knowledge to share with everyone.
I'd like to learn as much as I can about it. Unfortunately, I live i a place that isn't exactly crawling with educational opportunities. Hence my great pleasure at finding the Scuba Board. I doubt it will help, but I, for one, would like to see the rhetoric toned down a bit ~ on both sides!
crazyc
Contributor
Raybo,
They just held a bunch of GUE training in Santa Rosa NM at the end of November. Don't know how far you are from there, but if they've done it once, they'll do it again.
"C"
detroit diver
Contributor
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Rigorous. Demanding. Picky. Not militaristic.
That's why the DIR classes are legions ahead of other dive classes-at least at the basic level.
No one said it was conceived by the DIR "crowd". But like any good idea, it works extremely well for diving. FYI, the GUE training director is a pilot.
Well, one of them anyway. Your body should be absolutely horizontal, knees bent.
It's great that you are looking to improve your diving. But please understand, with DIR there is more than the equipment issue that many seem to focus on. Also, in DIR you can't pick and choose. Your either all DIR, or you're not DIR. Not a slam, that's just how it is.
I've never seen a post from a DIR proponent that berates a new diver for lack of experience. We may point out that there are better ways to do things, and argue our point vigorously, but don't put newbies down just to do it.
May the force be with you!!
Detroit Diver says:
I guess this is my major disagreement with the DIR philosophy. I have, for many years, been working on concepts of buoyancy control. I will not be held to a single philosophy on how to do it. My focus is to develop new ways of doing things.
I will take a good look at the DIR way (including buying the DIR book mentioned above), but my own efforts over the last 20 years on buoyancy control will continue to be my focus. I have my own techniques, and my own equipment that I have invented myself.
You can take a look and see if my equipment might have an answer too. This photo, of the Para-Sea Buoyancy Compensator I patented in the 1980's has many of the advantages of the DIR concepts, without the increased drag. It also incorporates it's own harness design into the BC concept. You can see the harness with the yellow straps. Note that I use a weight belt, and that this is the only strap around my waist. Therefore, finding the weight belt in an emergency is easy, as it's the only strap there. My design also places the center of buoyancy very near the weight belt, and has the additional benifit of having the air in the BC covering one of the major heat-loss areas of the body, the chest. I was unsuccessful in getting any manufacturer to make this BC commercially, so I have the only ones in existence.
I am continuing my work on diving equipment design, and will not be limited by anyone's ideas of what's right.
HAPPY NEW YEAR, EVERYBODY!
SeaRat
I guess this is my major disagreement with the DIR philosophy. I have, for many years, been working on concepts of buoyancy control. I will not be held to a single philosophy on how to do it. My focus is to develop new ways of doing things.
I will take a good look at the DIR way (including buying the DIR book mentioned above), but my own efforts over the last 20 years on buoyancy control will continue to be my focus. I have my own techniques, and my own equipment that I have invented myself.
You can take a look and see if my equipment might have an answer too. This photo, of the Para-Sea Buoyancy Compensator I patented in the 1980's has many of the advantages of the DIR concepts, without the increased drag. It also incorporates it's own harness design into the BC concept. You can see the harness with the yellow straps. Note that I use a weight belt, and that this is the only strap around my waist. Therefore, finding the weight belt in an emergency is easy, as it's the only strap there. My design also places the center of buoyancy very near the weight belt, and has the additional benifit of having the air in the BC covering one of the major heat-loss areas of the body, the chest. I was unsuccessful in getting any manufacturer to make this BC commercially, so I have the only ones in existence.
I am continuing my work on diving equipment design, and will not be limited by anyone's ideas of what's right.
HAPPY NEW YEAR, EVERYBODY!
SeaRat
nradov
Guest
Putting the BC on the chest area is going to cause stability problems with high capacity steel tanks. Between tanks, gas, and regulators we sometimes start the dive with more than 20lbs of negative buoyancy on our backs. If you put enough gas in a chest mounted BC to get neutral then you'll be constantly fighting a tendency to flip over on your back.
A standard back mounted wing has negligible drag, unless you inflate it so much that it can't wrap up around the tanks.
-Nick
I am beginning to see you as the Red Green of scuba and I suspect that the only thing that could limit your inventiveness is a shortage of duct tape
Seriously John... let me know the next time you come up to dive Edmonds Underwater Park and I will meet you there to look at some of your inventions.
NRADOV says:
If you'll look at this photo, you can see that the moment is very close to where the CG of the tanks/weights would be for the ParaSea BC, but very far away for the typical chest-mount BC. That's the difference, and the reason for the wings I put on the Para-Sea BC. I'm not saying mine is as good as what you have, only that I've taken that into consideration in the design. I haven't tested it though against what you have.
Uncle Pug,
Duct tape is good, but we used masking tape on our tanks (manifold guard) and fins in the USAF. It kept our fins on during parascuba jumps, and kept the parachute cords from wrapping around our manifold once we entered the water. Masking tape comes off better than duct tape
Enjoy the New Year.
SeaRat
If you'll look at this photo, you can see that the moment is very close to where the CG of the tanks/weights would be for the ParaSea BC, but very far away for the typical chest-mount BC. That's the difference, and the reason for the wings I put on the Para-Sea BC. I'm not saying mine is as good as what you have, only that I've taken that into consideration in the design. I haven't tested it though against what you have.
Uncle Pug,
Duct tape is good, but we used masking tape on our tanks (manifold guard) and fins in the USAF. It kept our fins on during parascuba jumps, and kept the parachute cords from wrapping around our manifold once we entered the water. Masking tape comes off better than duct tape
Enjoy the New Year.
SeaRat
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