Is it possible to travel responsibly (during a pandemic)?
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Grateful head
Contributor
How have I dismissed the non death consequence? So if the next pandemic doesn’t result in death, only non death consequences, you would still want widespread travel restrictions and lockdowns? Not a denier at all. As I stated all along, travel can be safe, responsible and above all beneficial. Mostly everyone here has glazed over the real life economic and social implications that these restrictions cause. Individual freedoms being trampled. Do you deny that economic and social consequences can be severe?One more time, travel can be safe and responsible. On a personal level, it’s really frustrating to see time and time again, the people that hold power and impose life altering restrictions on the masses, break their own rules. Makes you wonder when I can’t go to church or my moms on Christmas, but the liquor store is open. End of rant.
Cert1967
Contributor
Well, ok
Several camps and positions on this thread
@tursiops and the like would seem to favor a 'hard' approach. Greater restrictions that would prohibit dive tourism - large groups and international travel to dive.
@Dan and those traveling for diving believe that dive travel can be done in a responsible manner
The Dan camp are going on their upcoming trips and the Tursiops folks are staying at home by choice. Well not always by choice - some had their trips canceled by government or airline action.
For those in the 'hard' camp - what would you like to see put in place by government - politicians - that would prohibit and level sanctions on those that choose to dive travel and by extension those that facilitate such travel.
For those in the 'going if government doesn't say no' - they are boarding LABs this week, next week and into the future - international travel for land based dive trips as well.
@uncfnp - Clearly the folks traveling feel that they are responsible in their actions? If not would they travel?
The traveling folks - international Land + LABs are complying with all governmental laws and regulations - as are the carriers that transport them and their destination hosts.
And the dive industry is only a small part of the travel/tourist industry. About 400k folks will ski this weekend in the USA - for the most part fully compliant with government regulations.
SB folks? Well it seems that lots are staying pretty 'tight' at home and lots are traveling.
So, what would the 'hard' camp ask politicians to do in order to restrict travel that they find to be incompatible with V control? They can't control the decision to travel by the 'let's go group', they need political action to do so.
MichaelMc
Working toward Cenotes
@Cert1967, if we come up with this set of proposals, with our lack of degrees in epidemiology, public health, economics and law and our lack of statistics for industries and infections across the nation and globe, where should we send the proposals so the national task force working on this is enlightened?
Or should we realize there is a pandemic and do all we can to help end it, such as enthusiastically following the recommendations that have been given by our national health authorities? Recommendations our health officials have been pleading with us to follow.
Or should we realize there is a pandemic and do all we can to help end it, such as enthusiastically following the recommendations that have been given by our national health authorities? Recommendations our health officials have been pleading with us to follow.
Cert1967
Contributor
Hey, not bad for our tourist based economy? We have crowding, high mobility, and big testing numbers. Some folks are being tested multiple times per week - its free so why not?
A few errors but the data you presented is close. Your data source - unmentioned - is looking at the 'flash' daily numbers which will grow as final results are delayed by 3-5 days, weekends and holidays further delaying and lumping data. So some of you data is too low.
Your county data? Well so you say - what county was that? Oh, you didn't say, right?
Colorado says EC is 'orange'. Yep restaurants are open - inside and out. Closed - schools and government offices - pretty much everything else open - gyms, hair, docs, dentists, retail, big box. Vail Health (hospital) is full-on with elective surgeries.
Hospitalizations - COVID cases are transferred to the front range, along with most bad stuff - we have almost no pulmonary specialists in EC and the docs say that most V folks will do better at 5kASL rather than 8kASL. EC tracks hospitalizations without regard to where the geographic hospital stay is - only that an EC person is hospitalized somewhere.
Compliance with state health requirements? Very good in public settings. BUT, there are unintended consequences. The capacity restrictions for restaurants have pushed large gatherings to private spaces where compliance is poor to none. Masks - which range from 2xUP to ski buffs - just about everyone in public. A few guarding chins, but most are OK. At private gatherings the masks vanish.
Official Eagle County public health data at
Eagle County COVID-19 - English
https://datastudio.google.com/u/0/reporting/1ddB1kq5h6QjTk77HltHKnho8GHnvk85e/page/plbIB
https://datastudio.google.com/u/0/reporting/1ddB1kq5h6QjTk77HltHKnho8GHnvk85e/page/plbIB
EC has close to 10k seasonal employees - boys and girls - with an average age of ~22-24. They are a great breading ground. And impossible to control. Maybe the sex thing? They will rent a 2BDR for two and have 6-8 living in the unit. Short term housing is tight, expensive and hard to secure. The sets of folks that the 22 yo group interact with are high, large and diverse and when not in public compliance with regs is little to none. Parties - they have been driven out of the bars by capacity control and into close quartered, no capacity, private sites. Interesting - at the high end - the private chef market is on fire and the groups are big.
Colorado's governor has emergency authority - previous legislation - to implement stricter controls within the state. He has not done so - in fact the controls are becoming less stringent in most counties. It is a political decision for Polis not to do so. Some counties - Pitkin/Aspen - have upped restrictions. Most of Colorado has seen relaxed regulation.
Everything you say about EC is true. "Masks? Social distancing? Hand washing? Are your bars and restaurants open for inside dining?" Yes to all. Lots of masks, no so much distancing, hands drenched in 'sanitizer'. And nothing in the wind that would change the current status.
My point? Moral arguments of the 'hard' group will not change folks behavior that is in compliance with government dictates. The 'hard' group wants the other folks to mirror their behavior. And this, restricted behavior, is achievable only with the heavy had of government - for which the elected politicians seem to have limited and declining interest.
This weekend?
Lots of folks boarding LABs and lots of folks traveling to land based dive destinations. Common thread - their travel is in compliance with government dictates. The moral argument of the 'hard' folks would seem to be quite lost on those boarding planes, trains and automobiles this weekend for discretionary travel/gatherings - domestic and international.
So, what would you suggest that Governor Polis - who would like to be re-elected - do to meet your standards, and in so doing insure the safety of the state's citizens? Perhaps you might share your state's efforts at V control?
Post 144 “Possibly...” in reply to the point made about other consequences.
Many people are severely damaged by Covid. Even young people have increased mental health problems, and many many people have damage to heart, lungs, brain and so forth, we have no idea how those people will fare with their subsequent health. You may be buying another crisis like obesity or pain killer addiction.
The economic costs are not reduced by not doing a proper lockdown. By extending the crisis the standing cost of owning and maintain assets continue for longer without a good income stream to cover them. While there may be particular resilient businesses which will survive that many will not manage a half effective year vs three months of effective shutdown.
You seem to believe that travel can be safe. The mitigations against transfer are only mitigations, they reduce the chances but not to zero. A non zero chance times millions of interactions will result in more transfers of infection than fewer interactions. Thus reducing travel and interactions reduces infections and death. So is travel safe if reducing it means fewer deaths? Is it safe if it kills people, not one at a time but in the thousands?
Over December a new variety came to prominence in the south east of the U.K. As a result of this the r number increased significantly and the number of infections exploded even in the face of a (half arsed) lockdown. If you came on holiday here and returned to where ever you lived (and someone must have done that as it has turned up in Colorado and California) then you let loose a much much worse situation which kills many more people (U.K. daily deaths in this wave are 50% higher than in the first when it was new to doctors despite the people going to hospital individually doing better).
The idea of a bubble is to reduce the scope of infections. People who live together will almost inevitably become infected if one does. This goes for bigger groups. Places which are isolated and have little interaction nationally or globally have done best. Places with transport hubs have done badly.
You can imagine a “risk budget”. Each interaction carries some risk and the fewer the interactions the fewer people die or are badly damaged. Should you use that budget so people can visit dying relatives or so people can go diving? So people can buy food and essentials or so people can drink in a bar? So children can go to school or so that meetings can be held in person rather than via Teams?
Why can’t you visit people in their home while you can buy alcohol? What is the chances of becoming infected in a shop buying alcohol? How many such events will there be each day? What are the chances of becoming infected or passing on an infection when visiting a home? How many visits? Get the numbers, see the risk and consequences and decide whether the restrictions are worth while or not.
Dan
Contributor
I get 2 data points so far for being COVID-19 free via negative PCR test in December & January, following CDC protocols while traveling, coming back quarantining myself for 2 weeks before meeting with family & close friends. No one around me that has been in contact with me has contracted the virus. I keep in touch with everyone as @Cert1967 would know as we were on the same liveaboard 3 weeks ago.
Third PCR test will be done on February 6. I’ll keep you all posted.
I advise everyone in my group to Belize to get N95 or KN95 masks (not the useless cloth bandana without nose clip like masks) and to follow CDC protocols closely, especially while in the Houston airport from my experience in the last 2 overseas trips.
This is thread is about responsible travel. You seem focused on legal travel. I'm not sure if that is because you don't care about responsible travel, or think it is the same as legal, or what, but your posts are truly disturbing. You describe a situation that is demonstrably contributory to the mess we are in. If it takes government regulation to mitigate that situation, so be it. I would much prefer people take it upon themselves to be responsible, but apparently it sometimes takes laws and penalties to make that happen. In some places. Like yours.
maj2
Contributor
Not just that. They also announced an extra PCR test at the airport and 3 days at a quarantine hotel awaiting your results before being allowed to go home to finish the rest of your 14 day self-quarantine.
Airlines suspending certain flights, Ottawa introducing quarantine hotel stays to discourage travel | CBC News
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