Is it OK to turn off O2 in Rebreather Training?

[Superlyte27]

that is moronic of your instructor. Can you imagine trying to defend that if a student dies? "Yes your honour, I snuck up and turned off his oxygen without him noticing and after a few minutes I noticed him stop moving"

I've had two very well known instructor trainers from two different agencies turn off my oxygen as part of my instructor level course to see if I was aware of the issue.

 

[cerich]

I've had two very well known instructor trainers from two different agencies turn off my oxygen as part of my instructor level course to see if I was aware of the issue.

well known doesn't make them not morons. In fact some morons that are IT's write books and are in TV shows and I wouldn't let them teach someone I hated.

It is undefendable and of exceptionally limited training value over having the student do as part of the drill.

 

[doctormike]

Is it unexpected when it is briefed? I don't do unexpected failures that aren't briefed, in fact i brief my students that any truly unexpected failure that wasn't briefed as "possible" means it is real.

I also teach instructor candidates that they are NEVER to shut off a students gas.(see my above pretend conversation on the stand) If you want the gas shut off and the drill done, tell the student and the student will shut their own gas off. They can shut off own gas and demonstrate appropriate responses to the drill still.

Yeah, I think a instructor that shuts off a students oxygen in a CCR class in a moron.

Next question?

Hey, your opinion carries more weight than mine, so I guess you win.

I suppose if the instructor just watches while someone's PO2 steadily drops into hypoxia, and doesn't do anything, then your courtroom scenario is possible.

But if the whole point is to work out the problem, and if you are told ahead of time what is going to happen, you don't get that opportunity. That particular exercise was probably the high point of my training, and I was proud of myself for being calm and figuring things out. And I really learned a lot from it, so I'll stick with the moron.

 

[cerich]

Hey, your opinion carries more weight than mine, so I guess you win.

I suppose if the instructor just watches while someone's PO2 steadily drops into hypoxia, and doesn't do anything, then your courtroom scenario is possible.

But if the whole point is to work out the problem, and if you are told ahead of time what is going to happen, you don't get that opportunity. That particular exercise was probably the high point of my training, and I was proud of myself for being calm and figuring things out. And I really learned a lot from it, so I'll stick with the moron.

Boulder John made a really good post above.

I (and most agencies) believe the risk is not worth the limited benefit. AWas that the only case diving a CCR where you saw your PPO2 drop and you needed to take deliberate action BTW? I bet not.

 

[cerich]

Hey, your opinion carries more weight than mine, so I guess you win.

I suppose if the instructor just watches while someone's PO2 steadily drops into hypoxia, and doesn't do anything, then your courtroom scenario is possible.

But if the whole point is to work out the problem, and if you are told ahead of time what is going to happen, you don't get that opportunity. That particular exercise was probably the high point of my training, and I was proud of myself for being calm and figuring things out. And I really learned a lot from it, so I'll stick with the moron.

You're a doc right? You didn't have to induce a MI in a patient to learn how to work one right? We don't have to induce real emergencies either, we can easily simulate them. I can sure have a student learn to manage loss of oxygen without doing it to him/her

 

[doctormike]

You're a doc right? You didn't have to induce a MI in a patient to learn how to work one right? We don't have to induce real emergencies either, we can easily simulate them. I can sure have a student learn to manage loss of oxygen without doing it to him/her

Inappropriate analogy, since you obviously can't induce an MI in a patient, and since the student isn't at risk. But there are absolutely a lot of animal and mechanical simulations in medical training, and you would never tell the student what is going to happen first, it makes the exercise worthless. I say this having run both of those training programs.

Obviously you can teach with or without this method, I didn't say it was the only way to teach it. But it's certainly better in my mind than just telling a student that their O2 valve is closed and that they should reach around and open it.

The teaching comes from the student working through the process in real time, with real inputs and real procedures. It's obviously not appropriate for everything - I'm not saying that it's OK to cause channeling to simulate hypercapnea. But it works for this, where the PO2 drop is slow enough for the instructor to monitor it and give the student time to fix it long before the loop becomes dangerously hypoxic.

 

[cerich]

Inappropriate analogy, since you obviously can't induce an MI in a patient, and since the student isn't at risk. But there are absolutely a lot of animal and mechanical simulations in medical training, and you would never tell the student what is going to happen first, it makes the exercise worthless. I say this having run both of those training programs.

Obviously you can teach with or without this method, I didn't say it was the only way to teach it. But it's certainly better in my mind than just telling a student that their O2 valve is closed and that they should reach around and open it.

The teaching comes from the student working through the process in real time, with real inputs and real procedures. It's obviously not appropriate for everything - I'm not saying that it's OK to cause channeling to simulate hypercapnea. But it works for this, where the PO2 drop is slow enough for the instructor to monitor it and give the student time to fix it long before the loop becomes dangerously hypoxic.

The MD sitting 2 feet behind me said "of course you can with medication" more importantly google also agrees with him.

That aside, if I brief 5 possible failures and task load a student the instructor is certainly able to evaluate the performance of the student when stressed, without the instructor turning off the gas.

Frankly I see enough poor emergency management by my students when they were briefed it was possible and asking them to turn off gas...

 

[doctormike]

The MD sitting 2 feet behind me said "of course you can with medication" more importantly google also agrees with him.

Tell the MD behind you that I meant ethically. I think that you both knew that.

That aside, if I brief 5 possible failures and task load a student the instructor is certainly able to evaluate the performance of the student when stressed, without the instructor turning off the gas.

Frankly I see enough poor emergency management by my students when they were briefed it was possible and asking them to turn off gas...

I defer to you on this - I know virtually nothing about teaching scuba diving.

But I'm not changing instructors.

 

[KevinNM]

I also teach instructor candidates that they are NEVER to shut off a students gas.(see my above pretend conversation on the stand) If you want the gas shut off and the drill done, tell the student and the student will shut their own gas off. They can shut off own gas and demonstrate appropriate responses to the drill still.

Yeah, I think a instructor that shuts off a students oxygen in a CCR class in a moron.

Next question?

I seem to remember a death at Blue Grotto due to hypoxia that worked a lot like this...

 

[cerich]

Tell the MD behind you that I meant ethically. I think that you both knew that.



I defer to you on this - I know virtually nothing about teaching scuba diving.

But I'm not changing instructors.

yeah we did know you meant ethically, I won't shut off students gas because..ethically wrong, and indefensible. Be safe and thanks for the discussion.

Another dive professional in PM reached out and commented on this thread that it is a great example of Dunning-Kruger in action..