Is it me or is safety not a priority for some DMs?!? (Sorry..long post)

[Xanthro]

The good news is you got over your cold and could dive!!

One thing I learned is that "buddies" on boats do not do buddy checks. While the DM may put the tank on your BC for you, you have to rely on yourself to ensure your equipment is set up properly.

I've also found that it is common to have shallow solo ascents on many boats.

The dives were a bit deep at that point for you, but you survived and learned from it.

One problem with dive boats in areas like Maui is that the level of experience for the divers differs so greatly. If the group had to return when the first person is out of air, it would be a very short dive sometimes. Fortunately, the water is so clear that people on the boat can often monitor the divers in the water.

Plus, now that you've gotten the bad experiences aside, getting seasick is absolutely no fun, you can go diving locally. Let me know if you need a dive buddy.

Xanthro

 

[guymenton]

Haha...thanks for remembering -- Yeah, I was very happy that cold didn't get in the way of my vacation. And you are so right about the varying experience among divers -- in my group of 6, there was about 30min. difference between the 1st diver and last diver coming up to surface.

Speaking of seasickness on boats, I'm going to have to search on this forum for what other divers are doing to prevent it, so I'm not chumming the water again next time, as one diver put it...hahaha.

If anything, this has taught me to be as diligent as ever in my continuing dive education, training, and safe practices, not only for myself but for my fellow divers I will be diving with. I'd like to start night diving for this bug season, so if you're game, I might just take you up on your offer one of these days.

The good news is you got over your cold and could dive!!

One thing I learned is that "buddies" on boats do not do buddy checks. While the DM may put the tank on your BC for you, you have to rely on yourself to ensure your equipment is set up properly.

I've also found that it is common to have shallow solo ascents on many boats.

The dives were a bit deep at that point for you, but you survived and learned from it.

One problem with dive boats in areas like Maui is that the level of experience for the divers differs so greatly. If the group had to return when the first person is out of air, it would be a very short dive sometimes. Fortunately, the water is so clear that people on the boat can often monitor the divers in the water.

Plus, now that you've gotten the bad experiences aside, getting seasick is absolutely no fun, you can go diving locally. Let me know if you need a dive buddy.

Xanthro

 

[K-Rae]

If anyone here has had the opposite experience, and good dives with them, to refute my experience, I'd like to hear it. I hope I'm wrong about them, because if they are really as sloppy and haphazard as what I've seen, IMHO they're an accident waiting to happen.

I’m so sorry to hear about your experience, guymenton. As Diver0001 alluded to, though, my experience with Island Divers Hawaii was nothing short of outstanding.

I was in Honolulu in early August for work and planned on staying for 5 days of diving. I chose Island Divers because of their very cool website (www.islanddivershawaii.com). I booked my trip online with them a couple of months in advance and was very impressed when someone from the shop (they do in fact have a shop, and tanks, and gas blending capabilities, and everything else a dive operation needs…) called me to inquire about several things, including my cert level, experience, and the types of diving I’d prefer to do (wreck versus reef, deeper versus shallower, etc.). I’ve been diving for a long time and have been on a lot of charters and have never had anybody do this. A few days later, the same person from the shop (Max) actually emailed me a prospective dive itinerary so I could do some research on the web regarding the dive sites I’d be likely to see. Most excellent.

Every morning or evening, as the dives dictated, someone from Island Divers picked me up at my hotel on time. I dove with several of their folks, including Ken, Jo, Danny, and Dwayne. They always lugged my gear, asked for my c-card (on the first day), and had me fill out a release before the dive (which included my c-card number). They were quite accommodating of divers with varying levels of experience, and appeared to be very concerned with safety- giving thorough dive briefings, employing reliable diver accountability methods, and making sure that the lesser-experienced divers felt comfortable.

I’m a DM for a shop in North Carolina and work a lot of classes, in addition to working the occasional Saturday at the shop. I was so impressed with Island Divers’ customer service and, more importantly, safety, that I’ve already sent them a few referrals in the short time since my return from Honolulu. Our students are prospective future customers at the shop, so I most certainly would never send them anywhere for their checkouts that I had even a remote concern about. I’ve been sending our folks to Island Divers knowing that they would be safe and well looked-after, and given the outstanding customer service they could expect from our shop in North Carolina.

Just my $.02. Happy (and safe) diving!

 

[pt40fathoms]

OK, I know this will sound a little rough and to the point, but there is no nice way of putting it. I apologies in advance for the seemingly curt nature of the following paragraph, it is in no way meant to be directed at any one person, and is only meant to be informative in nature.

A DM on a boat is not there to tell you how to dive or who to dive with. He is absolutely not responsible for how you conduct yourself under the water, and he is not in control of your dive. If you choose to end the dive early, he is not their to escort you to the surface, you are not the only person on the trip and other divers are counting on him to continue showing them "neat stuff". If you are having issues during the dive, deal with them, the DM cannot be expected to keep a close eye on any one diver. You are not students; you are certified divers who are responsible for your own conduct. The duty of care the DM is expected to provide does not include individual monitoring of all divers on the dive trip.

You should do the following on any dive trip you take.

1) Always establish a rapport with your dive buddy prior to the dive, and do not leave it up to the DM to tell you who your dive buddy will be.

2) When you buddy up with a new person, while you are in conversation with them, finding out who they are, how many dives they have, how comfortable they are with the upcoming dive, establish your own ground rules for when you BOTH will ascend. Make it clear that nobody ascends solo if that is your wish.

3) Treat the DM as a tour guide who will help you see all the neat stuff, and nothing more!

4) Be nice to the DM, do not treat them as trash, you will only get the same back. Their job is to help you have fun, not to tell you how to dive.

5) If you are a new diver, and this is your first trip, ask the DM what is considered proper etiquette or procedure if you are unsure. A DM should make allowances for new divers and help them prepare by pointing out to them what they can expect, and what is common on dives of the nature you are about to go on. But they should not plan your dive. That is still your job.

Unfortunately this is learned by trial and error by many divers, and can end up making a dive trip less pleasurable. I hope your next trip has less unforeseen circumstances, and is filled with many happy memories, as they should be.

 

[Aggie Diver]

I am surprised at having read this thread. In December me and a bud (he posts here by the handle lanmonkey) did 10 dives each with Island Divers, and had a completely opposite experience.

They had us fill out a liability release for every dive outing (we had different DMs and the dives were spread out over the course of a week), and for the first set of dives carded us (asked for c-cards).

Looking back we did 4 dives with Ken, 4 with Matt (shop owner), and 2 with Jo. Nothing but smooth sailing the whole way (until the weather got rough and the last two days of diving got cancelled).

Buc, your assessment of Island Divers couldn't be more wrong. Who gave you that info., another shop?

Island Diver's shop is located on Hickam AFB, at the poolhouse. They've got probably over 100 tanks (dunno how many exactly, but they had a hell of a lot when we were there) and also offered Nitrox for those who wanted it. Limited selection of dive gear in their shop, but they were more about getting divers out on trips than selling gear (that's why their prices are lower - little in overhead gear inventory costs).

I never had to get a ride from them (we had a rental car) but usually when the van rolled up to the dock they had a few divers in tote that they had picked up at places around town.

From the viewpoint of a dive pro myself (DM at the time, now AI) I thought Ken was very thorough on his dive briefings for the sites (we did the Corsair trip with him, then a second night trip to the Sea Tiger). Explained procedures, dive times, fish to look for, etc.

On the Sea Tiger dive, he stayed at the mooring line with an artificial sun (one of those high powered UK light cannons, but if you've seen one UW you know what I'm talking about) so we knew where to head back to.

The second dive we did that night was on Kewalo Pipe. He led the dive down the pipe (seaward), and when the first member of the group hit 1800 he turned the dive back up the pipe to the mooring line.

There was a member of the group who was doing his first night dive, and he kept that buddy team with him at the front of the group on the pipe, just to make sure the guy was comfy (they also didn't stray too far from the line on the Sea Tiger).

I'm sorry that you had a bad experience with Island Divers on your trip, it sounds like Ken may have been having a bad day or something, he was top notch on our trip.

Similarly, I'm not sure what happened on the phone when discussing your dives. Max usually handled the actual bookings and charges, etc., are you sure it wasn't him that you had your "disagreement" with?

Matt is the owner, and he seemed like a good guy around us. We shot the breeze with him at the shop on two or three occassions, and he also went out on two trips with us (Sea Tiger day and Black Rock day), even had his wife and parents with us for both trips.

The shop just got up and running in the last year if I remember right, but they seemed like they had their stuff together.

At any rate, sorry you had a bad experience, but I just wanted to put in two cents on the other side of the coin. I do agree with what others have said here though...

* develop a relationship with your buddy for the dives. I've helped certify about 500 divers now, and my experience is that when strangers are first paired together, there is often an initial moment of hesitance/resistance to someone new.

But once they extend their hands, shake, and introduce themselves, and start talking, you'd be amazed at how friendly they become. It's easier to break that barrier with something in common background wise, and guess what - you're both divers!

Some friendly "so, how long you been a diver?", "done any other dives down here (HI or wherever)?", "so where else ya been diving at?" is a great way to break the ice.

* take care of yourself first, both WRT assessing if you really want to do the dive and also to taking care of your safety on them (this ties in with having a relationship with the buddy, whether they were "friendly" or not)

* don't be afraid to talk to the divemaster if something doesn't sound right, or you don't feel right about something. Just don't confront him in front of everyone. Tell them you have something you want to talk to them about in private, say "hey, can I talk to you for a sec", whatever you're comfy with

* practice your buoyancy skills so you can hover midwater away from objects (like say a descent line). if there's not a lot of current, you can usually just hang out and not have to worry about the surface chop bouncing you up and down on the line)

* go back to Hawaii again and do the Sea Tiger, it's an awesome dive! (easily my favorite dive in Hawaii... can't speak to Kauai yet)

 

[Buccaneer]

Well, maybe mine was an isolated incident, but none the less, it was terrible customer service. Something else i didn't even mention. Our first dive was supposed to be the Corsair wreck. But when we arrived, we were taken to a barge and then a shallow reef, neither a dive location I had scheduled. Originally they had asked me to pick the dives i wanted and on what days. it wasn't until the boat left the dock that I was informed of the change in destination. I wasn't too upset at the time, because I thought we would get out on the plane eventually- but as you read, I never even bothered to dive with them again.
As far as the dives I did make, they went fine. I had no issue with Ken really, other than him insisting before the dive we stay with him, and then getting me back to the boat w/ 200 psi. However, I do accept that my air management is MY responsibility, but as a DM you must surely agree that is not a safe way of doing business.
Anyways, point being, everyone has there own experiences and perceptions. I simply wanted to share mine as acurately, and as honestly as possible. And in doing so, I feel I cannot in good faith recommend them to anyone.

 

[TX101]

I tend to agree with pt40fathoms. Everybody is a certified diver so you shouldn't even need a DM. In fact, I prefer not to have one at all and got a little pissed that in the red sea you have to have one and follow him at all times.

On your second dive.. think of it from the DM's point of view. He has a group that descends. Two don't make it. He can either go back up, leaving the group at 100ft to burn through their air while he sorts out the problems of the other two people or he can continue the dive. If he ascends, he will be at an absolute minimum 5 minutes and thats if he fixes the problem in under a minute. He has then done a bounce dive - not that good for DCS.

If I was the DM, I would have waited a minute and if noone had appeared I would have continued the dive. Like the DM said when we were doing the Thistlegorm (100ft wreck) - "If you have any problems descending, your dive is over because I can't waste time fixing your problem when everyone else is waiting at 100ft".

 

[sea nmf]

I live on Oahu and belong to a scuba club affiliated with Island Divers.

I have found that Matt is interested in knowing about it when the DM does not perform in a safe manner. He has the opportunity to discuss it with the staff member and stress the importance of safety.

On every club dive, we have to fill out the proper paperwork so I'm not sure how that was missed on your dives.

I can't address the monetary issues as I've not had them. They do have a cancellation policy we have to abide by. The only lesson to be learned here is to get names and dates to parrot back when told you didn't cancel (in the future - all operators).

The other thing I agree with the other posters on is to be assertive when "buddiless on the boat" and make it clear to SOMEONE that you are a part of their buddy team. When diving with my frequent buddies, we are normally a group of four. I request, even within that group, that we know who the two buddy teams are. I'm more comfortable when I know I have to watch out for only my assigned buddy(s). Then, after the briefing, talk to your new buddy about your dive plan and any issues/wishes you might have (like "lets stay together from descent to ascent").

 

[Lloyd Jones]

Everyone is correct. Ultimately I am responsible for my own safety and responsible for my decisions, and placed under questionable circumstances on these dives, I did not err on the side of caution and basically accepted the risks taken. I don't expect DMs to hold my hand, and in fact, I'm very independent, which explains why I compromised my own better judgement to go ahead with the dives.

I'm very friendly so on both boats, I did make attempts on the ride out to connect with people. The other lone people seemed standoffish, so unless the DM was going to explicitly assign, I wasn't going to pursue it myself. In hindsight, I should've been more assertive with the operation or DM pre-dive, in asking more questions about the dive procedures, like asking about buddypairing, and asking if these dives were appropriate for my experience.

I know I can vomit through my reg, but wasn't in the mood to test it out. :headshake Please don't get me wrong. At home, I always play it safe, and my buddy knows I'm a stickler for common sense and following safe procedure. I've learned my lessons here -- it's up to me to be diligent about my own comfort on any particular dive and not go along with the crowd against my better instincts and judgement. Thanks everyone for your advice -- I needed to hear it and I appreciate it very much. I know all your advice is to help me be a better and safe diver, and not become a liability to myself and others.

I was involved in another incident (see Lost at Sea), I learned from this by checking the operation of the boat on the way to the dive site - does the boat driver appear to be competent? Is the boat registered? (ie numbers on the side) Are there appropriate PFD's on board?Is there a fire extinguisher on board? Is there an oxy-viva on board? - these items indicate the safety priority of the operator. If these items are not on board then you dive with the knowledge that you are responsible for yourself and your buddy for you will not get much support from the dive operator.

 

[oversea]

Hey, Just curious, but this wouldn't have happened to be Island Divers on Ohahu would it?? I had a similar experience and alot more problems, both w/ the dive and over charges. The magna doodle comment caught my attention. Was it a short guy, dark curly hair and goatee? Ken I believe was the name...

No, I believe you are referring to Wes. I am shocked you had problems. I did my first deep dive with them and really had quite a pleasanr experience, very comfortable.