Is it me or is safety not a priority for some DMs?!? (Sorry..long post)

[guymenton]

I don't want to sound like I'm knocking the dive operators and I wouldn't feel comfortable naming them. Actually, the one on Maui was top-notch as far as the whole atmosphere on the boat, and their friendly attitude. They set up everyone's gear, and the DM polled each person as to their comfort level pre-dive. I just neglected to tell them I was uncomfortable without an assigned buddy, esp. for the ascent. So my fault for not being more assertive.

What Charlie99 describes is how the ascent was done. After a 95ft drift drive, the DM brought us up shallower to 40ft, and we were allowed to descend up at the predetermined psi on our own to wait for boat pickup. I'm sure the DM had me in his sights.

On the ascent of the shallower 2nd dive when I felt like throwing up, the boat was visible above us with a mooring line, and he would just point us in the direction of the line for ascent.

Other than not having a buddy, I really enjoyed their tour, and liked the DM. I just thought it odd and discomforting that we weren't paired off and that we were allowed to ascend alone. But if Charlie99 says this is accepted practice, that's all I was wondering about.

It's really the second dive operator in Oahu that left a bad taste in my mouth (no pun intended). I mean, if 2 people don't make it down to the wreck, I thought the DM would surface to see what's wrong and I was actually waiting at surface expecting to see him come up for further instruction. When I didn't see him, I decided to go down by myself. The more I think about it, the more stupid I feel for risking a 100ft descent alone.

Maybe because of my inexperience, I'm just blowing this all way out of proportion, now that I've had time to mull things over since my original post. I'm sorry if I'm making an issue out of nothing. :small:

As far as your solo ascent at Molokini, a common practice there is that any diver or buddy pair ascending early will do their ascent immediately above the group and the DM keeps an eye on them until the boat pulls up nearby and calls them over to board. (The better operator puts up a DSMB and early ascending divers ascend by the buoy.)

Although there are always 3 sides to a story, it still would be interesting to know who the dive operators were. So who were they?

 

[diverbrian]

As a divemaster, I do not let people ascend unattended. There is one exception. I normally dive with a couple of people (myself falling into their category) that are comfortable solo divers. If they tell me up front that they are diving solo and I have dove with them before, they do the dive solo and I don't have a problem with that. They would take it as an insult if I didn't, LOL. Even then, I swim around and keep a half an eye out for them (after all they may miss a cool feature of the wreck that day).

If they are a buddy team, I expect to see them together on descents and ascents especially. Again, they are responsible for their own dive safety as a buddy team. If I see the buddy team apart, I will check on them and find out what is up in case there is a problem. I am fortunate that I mostly dive wrecks and hanging around the ascent line is normally an option.

If I have a known newbie, they are my buddy. The buddy groups are responsible for their dives and I am responsible for my buddy. We are actually a pretty independent group in this region as far as DM services expected.

ONE THING... Anybody in the groups that I am with can call their dive for any reason and no questions asked. If they are too seasick to gear up, they aren't going to get pressured to dive and I will call on the carpet anyone else that applies pressure to a diver calling a dive. This is ESPECIALLY if I am the assigned DM.

Yes, you may feel better under the water. As a former submariner, I am aware of this. I may mention it. But, if you want to call the dive, no one I dive with will pressure a diver to do it. Several of the people that I dive with will call it just because of an instinct that says not to do that dive. We are all cool with that as well. Keep this in mind if it happens again. If the DM persists, please ignore him. Dehydration (a side effect of nasuea) is a contributor to decompression illness. Please remember that!

 

[ScubaFreak]

It's really the second dive operator in Oahu that left a bad taste in my mouth

Just firstly, I worked in Oahu for a whole season couple years back and had my run ins with the odd cowboy, I'd be interested what dive operation it was, might be able to shed some light. But PM me if you dont wanna say it on the public boards.

In hindsight, I should've been more assertive with the operation or DM pre-dive, in asking more questions about the dive procedures, like asking about buddypairing, and asking if these dives were appropriate for my experience

This is a point that I've brought up many times, and I always teach it as part of any courses that I teach. If you (the student/recently certified diver) have issues about a dive, say it to the DM. You don't need to say it in front of the other divers, bring the DM aside and speak to him/her. If they have the qualities a DM should have, they wont mind in the slightest, in fact they'll most likely appreciate it.
I've been in the position as a beginner as I think most of us probably have, where we don't want to question the DM or Instructors plans. If you feel theres something wrong- THERE IS! If you are uncomfortable about standards etc, it's up to you to bring it up.

First I'm going to question why you are doing a dive to 100 feet with no more experience and training than you have

This is also an important point!

Oops, think i'll finish this cos i'm hoggin the thread, but well done for posting here, it shows that you know something wasn't right. So well done

SF

 

[Buccaneer]

Hey, Just curious, but this wouldn't have happened to be Island Divers on Ohahu would it?? I had a similar experience and alot more problems, both w/ the dive and over charges. The magna doodle comment caught my attention. Was it a short guy, dark curly hair and goatee? Ken I believe was the name...

 

[Diver0001]

....snip....

Any advice from veterans would be much appreciated on things I could've done better?

First of all, it is enormously gratifying to see you asking this question. Many people are unaware that they have a roll to play "being" supervised, just as the DM has a roll in doing it.

I think the best thing I can offer you for the future is one word. INITIATIVE. Your DM wasn't anticipating your needs and you could see that. So instead of waiting, for example, to be assigned a buddy you could have stepped to the DM and asked him for one or likewise you could have approached other divers on the boat directly and sorted it out yourself.

Many DM's assign buddies during the briefing so approach him before the briefing and ask him if he will assign buddy teams. if he says no then tell him that you don't have a buddy and you don't want to dive alone and he (any DM with normal social skills) will play match maker and make sure you have a buddy. In the highly unusual case that he then refuses to match you up then you only have one choice and that's to do it yourself (and save your tip money!!!)

Secondly about the ascents: Chris (iruku) made a good post about this but I'll just add that I don't believe that solo ascents are a good idea, especially for a new diver in unfamiliar circumstances. Dive with a buddy (show initiative) and make sure your buddy understands that if one of you needs to surface that you both surface. It's more important that your buddy understands this than the DM.

Thirdly about the Buddy check. You don't need the DM to tell you to do a buddy check. You remembered it without his prompting so get your buddy to do it. In this case you didn't have a buddy but you could have asked anyone around you to check you out and they would have done it without hesitating......INITIATIVE.

And then a couple of comments about the DM. Your description the the dive procedures sounds sloppy to me. The others have gone through that already so I won't bore you with the details but I wanted to highlight two things I think the DM did right:

- When he told you to go diving instead of sitting on the boat being sea-sick. This is good general advice. I personally wouldn't force it (after all it's your dive so it's ultimately your call) but I would strongly advise it.

- When you surprised the DM by descending again after escorting the weight belt girl to the surface the DM acted alertly by asking you where she was.

R..

 

[guymenton]

Thanks for yours and everyone's supportiveness and advice. To be honest, it seemed the DM was more concerned about the weightbelt than anything. After I scribbled she was OK, he kept re-asking me on his magnadoodle whether or not the weightbelt was dropped or recovered.

I've since found out from another scubaboard member, who had even worse experiences with this O'ahu dive operator, that they are an internet only company. They have no store and own no boats, and act as a middleman by booking people onto other people's dive boats. I was wondering why it was just this DM that seemed to be a "one-man" operation. There was no other supporting staff at all with us on the boat, other than the boat crew who viewed us and the other 2 unrelated dive groups as just passengers on the boat.

Now that I know the sloppiness and unprofessionalism that I witnessed is not an isolated case, I have no problem naming this O'ahu dive operation. It's Island Divers Hawaii (www.islanddivershawaii.com). From my experience and the experience of the other scubaboard member, these guys are sloppy, and using minimum resources and manpower to book tourist divers in O'ahu. No wonder their 2-tank prices were so cheap compared to the other more well-known O'ahu dive operators.

If anyone here has had the opposite experience, and good dives with them, to refute my experience, I'd like to hear it. I hope I'm wrong about them, because if they are really as sloppy and haphazard as what I've seen, IMHO they're an accident waiting to happen.

- When you surprised the DM by descending again after escorting the weight belt girl to the surface the DM acted alertly by asking you where she was.

R..

 

[Buccaneer]

I have to agree with his post. I believe everyone would do well to stay away from Island Divers. Here is a copy of the PM I shared:
Personally, after my experience I have no probs trashing them publicly. Later I found out they are an internet only company. They have no store, or own any boats or tanks or anything. They make their money as a middle man, booking people onto other people's dive boats. Believe it or not, Ken is a PADI instructor, not just a DM. Anyways, as far as my dives went, they were okay, except on an 80ft dive (Ken leading) I kept advising I was low on air (including actual handsignals with the amount of air), and he kept giving me the hang loose sign. the long short of it was he gets me back on the boat w/ less than 200psi. I almost bailed on the dive and went up on my own. My biggest issue was my wife and my buddy who were with us, got sick and couldn't equalize, but they refused to refund any of the $$$ (here in Seattle standard procedure is to charge only 50-60% of the fee, if you don't dive) Then that day, I called and cancelled the night dive I had scheduled in 2 days for everyone but me. To my surprise, Ken calls in the morning saying he is out front to pick me up. When I told him it was a night dive, not a morning dive, he just hung up on me, with no comment whatsoever. So I waited a few hours and called the "shop" and was told there was no night dive even on the books, and they also claimed they had no record of me cancelling for the other 2 divers either. I then was really tired of ther antics (I had been asking for a receipt for days as well and never got one) so I cancelled all of my future dives thru them. I then went to another charter to set up dives. That night when I got to the hotel, Island Divers had left a msg saying they scrambled together a night dive and wanted to know if My party would be going. Then the next day, the owner calls me, and starts yelling at me, saying I can't cancel last minute for dives, that i never cancelled for the other divers in my party, and that I failed to show up for the night dive, that they put together just for me. He told me he had charged me for 2 days of diving for 3 people total. (about $500) We argued for 30 min but at the end he said he would credit me for one full day. When I got home, he had billed me for the full amount and I had to dispute the charges thru my credit card co. In the end I won, but when you bust your *** to take a nice vacation and go thru that crap, it really sucks!

Thanks for yours and everyone's supportiveness and advice. To be honest, it seemed the DM was more concerned about the weightbelt than anything. After I scribbled she was OK, he kept re-asking me on his magnadoodle whether or not the weightbelt was dropped or recovered.

I've since found out from another scubaboard member, who had even worse experiences with this O'ahu dive operator, that they are an internet only company. They have no store and own no boats, and act as a middleman by booking people onto other people's dive boats. I was wondering why it was just this DM that seemed to be a "one-man" operation. There was no other supporting staff at all with us on the boat, other than the boat crew who viewed us and the other 2 unrelated dive groups as just passengers on the boat.

Now that I know the sloppiness and unprofessionalism that I witnessed is not an isolated case, I have no problem naming this O'ahu dive operation. It's Island Divers Hawaii (www.islanddivershawaii.com). From my experience and the experience of the other scubaboard member, these guys are sloppy, and using minimum resources and manpower to book tourist divers in O'ahu. No wonder their 2-tank prices were so cheap compared to the other more well-known O'ahu dive operators.

If anyone here has had the opposite experience, and good dives with them, to refute my experience, I'd like to hear it. I hope I'm wrong about them, because if they are really as sloppy and haphazard as what I've seen, IMHO they're an accident waiting to happen.

 

[justleesa]

Oh man! and I know you were really looking forward to your trip....Sorry that it turned out that way. Many things you stated are not standard procedures. You have to enter your c-card when you fill out the release form....now you're gonna tell me you didn't even do that, right? (hope not)....Anyway, you've gotten some good info already...I hope you come back and make better choices...The Sea Tiger is a really great dive, as long as you have a good dive guide/DM that you can depend on.

Aloha,
Lisa

 

[guymenton]

Funny you mention that...because he was 1hour late picking me up and in a hurry to get back to the boat, he didn't have me sign the release form until after we got back to port, after the dives. It's a good thing for him, I'm a nice guy and signed it.

Yes, I'm much more aware now thanks to everyone's input, and a better diver for it. I'll be back to O'ahu in February, so I hope I get a chance to dive with you and Capt. Bob this time!

Oh man! and I know you were really looking forward to your trip....Sorry that it turned out that way. Many things you stated are not standard procedures. You have to enter your c-card when you fill out the release form....now you're gonna tell me you didn't even do that, right? (hope not)....Anyway, you've gotten some good info already...I hope you come back and make better choices...The Sea Tiger is a really great dive, as long as you have a good dive guide/DM that you can depend on.

Aloha,
Lisa

 

[Diver0001]

Oddly, I did a quick search on Island divers in the archives and on first glance it looks like the feedback on them is overwhelmingly positive. I wonder if this change is recent.

R..