Is horizontal position really better?

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Most of the problem has nothing to do with seeking the lowest common denominator--it a simple unwillingness to change. It happens in all walks of life.

I learned this years ago as a school teacher. I tried some innovative teaching strategies that were being recommended, and I was stunned at the difference in student achievement. After a couple of years,, my full time job became working in central administration, teaching teachers how to make those changes themselves. The resistance to change was shocking. In many cases, it took the form of open hostility.

IIRC, it was around 1970 that education researcher John Goodlad published a clear description of the problem. His initial goal was to see which instructional programs were the most effective. Previous researchers (especially Coleman) had compared instructional programs by comparing the achievements of schools that had adopted different programs and discovered that there didn't seem to be any real difference. Goodlad did it differently--he went into the actual classrooms and observed the teachers. What he discovered was that it did not matter what instructional program the school had implemented. Once the door of the classroom was closed, many and perhaps most of the teachers just did what they had always done before, ignoring the adopted program.

Other researchers found that classroom teachers tend to teach their students the way they were taught themselves, regardless of any training to the contrary they may have received.

Research by the Annenberg Institute for School Reform at Brown University showed that the open resistance by only a couple of teachers was enough to derail all reform efforts within that building.

Why would scuba instruction be any different?

so basically there is no hope?

The only hope I have is that RAID continues to take marketshare. Money is the only thing that is going to get agencies to reform/mandate neutral buoyancy instruction.

 

[boulderjohn]

so basically there is no hope?

The only hope I have is that RAID continues to take marketshare. Money is the only thing that is going to get agencies to reform/mandate neutral buoyancy instruction.

It will change in time, in part because it is indeed being required--slowly.

It is a mistake to think that the people resisting change are necessarily looking for the bottom line. In fact, in many cases, it is just the opposite. They believe they are upholding high standards and good instructional technique in the face of people like me chasing foolish fads.

So what happens to those people when DMs and then later instructors are required to demonstrate skills neutrally buoyant? That idea goes out the window. It really goes out the window when they realize it does not take any more time to get through the course this way. The key is this--when they actually see it for themselves, they realize that the horrors they had been imagining are not true.

I think my personal experience will give an idea.

I developed my way a little at a time while working as one of about a dozen instructors at a PADI shop. I experimented, all the while consulting with our Course Director to make sure I wasn't violating any standards. He watched what was happening. He was not the only one watching. Other instructors saw what I was doing and tried some of it, too. I remember one of them talking about the shocking realization at how much easier it was to teach the first confined water session that way. Regulator recovery is ridiculously easy in horizontal trim. When it came time to publish, those instructors at that shop signed off on the document, even though they had nothing to do with the actual drafting. That includes the Course Director, who then required all instructors there to teach that way.

Writing the final draft of that article took a long time, with me going back and forth with Karl Shreeves of PADI on the final draft. (The original draft was about 3 times as long as the printed draft.) There was initial reluctance about it all, and a warning that they would not have room in the publication for it for nearly two years. Things changed as we discussed, and suddenly they were going to print it in the next issue! I realized then what had happened. While we were discussing it, they were trying it. They had a "Holy cow! This really works!" experience. The year after the publication, the regional meetings across the country featured the regional managers advising everyone to give it a try.

I moved to a different shop. I talked about it all at the new shop, and they wanted nothing to do with it. I could do it that way if I wanted, but they were certainly not going to even suggest that other instructors join in that craziness. One of their most experienced and most influential instructors was absolutely opposed. Eventually the time came to teach a DM class, and the Director of Instruction wanted me to teach them the basic skills, but I had to do it on the knees. Nope.

I eventually shifted to teaching almost only technical diving. A couple of weeks ago I shared a swimming pool with that second shop. The instructor who had been most opposed was there, teaching students neutrally buoyant. Another instructor was there as well--teaching on the knees. Well--there was some progress.

 

[Celt]

What about a reef where you want to look at the invertebrates underneath you?

And if your answer is "head down trim is best there", head down is not the issue, feet down is the issue. And the inability to be anything but feet down for any but the briefest of moments when short lived effort is expended and quickly abandoned as too much work. Leading to a kicked up or destroyed bottom.

Your pointing the finger at the wrong people, the tour operators and dive charters are just as responsible for diver damage to reefs as the customer. Would an operator refuse a customers money if they couldn't hold a horizontal trim?

 

[MichaelMc]

Your pointing the finger at the wrong people, the tour operators and dive charters are just as responsible for diver damage to reefs as the customer. Would an operator refuse a customers money if they couldn't hold a horizontal trim?

I'm saying what behavior is wrong on the reef. I'm not pointing the finger at people. Beyond those who effectively defend a strong predisposition to littering and habitat destruction once told it is rather anti social. Or those that keep littering, taking no efforts to stop.

Again, I don't care what you do 20' from the bottom. I do care if you kick up or destroy the bottom. But the inability to easily hold a horizontal orientation puts the bottom at strong risk of damage if you dive close to it. Near inevitable risk of damage.

Yes, agencies, dive shops, gear manufacturers, instructors, students, charters and divers all have culpability. None of that changes which behavior is wrong on the reef.

Saying it is not the end divers fault should not be used as a diversion from the behavior being bad.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

It will change in time, in part because it is indeed being required--slowly.

It is a mistake to think that the people resisting change are necessarily looking for the bottom line. In fact, in many cases, it is just the opposite. They believe they are upholding high standards and good instructional technique in the face of people like me chasing foolish fads.

So what happens to those people when DMs and then later instructors are required to demonstrate skills neutrally buoyant? That idea goes out the window. It really goes out the window when they realize it does not take any more time to get through the course this way. The key is this--when they actually see it for themselves, they realize that the horrors they had been imagining are not true.

I think my personal experience will give an idea.

I developed my way a little at a time while working as one of about a dozen instructors at a PADI shop. I experimented, all the while consulting with our Course Director to make sure I wasn't violating any standards. He watched what was happening. He was not the only one watching. Other instructors saw what I was doing and tried some of it, too. I remember one of them talking about the shocking realization at how much easier it was to teach the first confined water session that way. Regulator recovery is ridiculously easy in horizontal trim. When it came time to publish, those instructors at that shop signed off on the document, even though they had nothing to do with the actual drafting. That includes the Course Director, who then required all instructors there to teach that way.

Writing the final draft of that article took a long time, with me going back and forth with Karl Shreeves of PADI on the final draft. (The original draft was about 3 times as long as the printed draft.) There was initial reluctance about it all, and a warning that they would not have room in the publication for it for nearly two years. Things changed as we discussed, and suddenly they were going to print it in the next issue! I realized then what had happened. While we were discussing it, they were trying it. They had a "Holy cow! This really works!" experience. The year after the publication, the regional meetings across the country featured the regional managers advising everyone to give it a try.

I moved to a different shop. I talked about it all at the new shop, and they wanted nothing to do with it. I could do it that way if I wanted, but they were certainly not going to even suggest that other instructors join in that craziness. One of their most experienced and most influential instructors was absolutely opposed. Eventually the time came to teach a DM class, and the Director of Instruction wanted me to teach them the basic skills, but I had to do it on the knees. Nope.

I eventually shifted to teaching almost only technical diving. A couple of weeks ago I shared a swimming pool with that second shop. The instructor who had been most opposed was there, teaching students neutrally buoyant. Another instructor was there as well--teaching on the knees. Well--there was some progress.

John,

When did you and others write that article? And what has really changed since? In the past couple years, in order to receive a 5 in two skills (regulator recovery and clear and the other I forget - correct me if I'm mistaken), they had to be performed neutrally buoyant.

That was the change in 9 years? Those skills could still be performed on the knees and one earns a 3, yes?

That's hardly progress. The same applies to pretty much all agencies.

Do I understand you correctly that PADI HQ essentially said "Holy cow! This really works!"? If the answer is yes, and that's all we have today, that's simply pathetic. I know other agencies have had that realization, and their progress is patheticly slow.

 

[boulderjohn]

Your pointing the finger at the wrong people, the tour operators and dive charters are just as responsible for diver damage to reefs as the customer. Would an operator refuse a customers money if they couldn't hold a horizontal trim?

In the first decade or so of my diving, I did a lot of diving in Cozumel and got to know the reefs well. I learned the dives you did on those reefs varied dramatically by the quality of the divers in your group.

On a dive in Akumal, the DM had said before the dive that my friends and I were the only people signed up for the next dive, and he wanted to take us to a more advanced site. Unfortunately, another couple signed up, and the wife was simply terrible. We went to that site, but he wouldn't let us get anywhere near the coral canyons and swim throughs. After the dive, he apologized, saying he had wanted to show us a really cool site, but he couldn't do the intended dive with that couple.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Your pointing the finger at the wrong people, the tour operators and dive charters are just as responsible for diver damage to reefs as the customer. Would an operator refuse a customers money if they couldn't hold a horizontal trim?

Considering the destruction I saw pretty much all divers do to a reef while in Belize, I agree. Now most were vacation divers (and poorly trained), but the most egregious person was the photographer with over 25 years of diving.

 

[boulderjohn]

I am now going to add this point to the last post for a different reason. The dive guide who had wanted to take us to the advanced site had been our DM for the morning dive, and that was the first time he had seen us. He had decided that we were all very advanced divers, which is why he wanted to take us to the advanced site. He told us that the couple who had joined us only had about 25 logged dives, and so their buoyancy and trim were still at a beginning level.

That DM was very surprised when I pointed to my two friends and said I had just certified them as OW divers the day before. He had just witnessed their first two dives as certified divers.

That is the difference you see when teaching OW students while neutrally buoyant rather than on the knees.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I am now going to add this point to the last post for a different reason. The dive guide who had wanted to take us to the advanced site had been our DM for the morning dive, and that was the first time he had seen us. He had decided that we were all very advanced divers, which is why he wanted to take us to the advanced site. He told us that the couple who had joined us only had about 25 logged dives, and so their buoyancy and trim were still at a beginning level.

That DM was very surprised when I pointed to my two friends and said I had just certified them as OW divers the day before. He had just witnessed their first two dives as certified divers.

That is the difference you see when teaching OW students while neutrally buoyant rather than on the knees.

John,

You are not part of the problem but have been a big part of the solution. We may have our differences but I have to acknowledge that.

I still don't think we can expect existing and future instructors to focus on how to improve.

It amazes me to the death grip many instructors and dive centers have with teaching on their knees. So without mandating change, with such people there will be no change.

It appears you and I have opposite views of the role agencies should play.

Edit: I did have a private conversation some years ago with an instructor close to an influential IT at one agency that encourages teaching neutrally buoyant. As this is fundamentally hearsay and I dont have permission to ide today the IT or agency, but it came down to this. The agency was concerned about the loss of instructors who would cross over to other agencies if teaching neutrally buoyant was mandated. And that means a decline in revenue. I believe that this is a real concern for even PADI, as a number of agencies pursue PADI dive centers/instructors to cross over. In some regions (Greece is one, though obviously a very small market), they have been quite successful as PADI is no longer the dominant agency.

 

[boulderjohn]

John,

When did you and others write that article? And what has really changed since? In the past couple years, in order to receive a 5 in two skills (regulator recovery and clear and the other I forget - correct me if I'm mistaken), they had to be performed neutrally buoyant.

That was the change in 9 years? Those skills could still be performed on the knees and one earns a 3, yes?

That's hardly progress. The same applies to pretty much all agencies.

Do I understand you correctly that PADI HQ essentially said "Holy cow! This really works!"? If the answer is yes, and that's all we have today, that's simply pathetic. I know other agencies have had that realization, and their progress is patheticly slow.

There is no question that I am disappointed in the pace of change. I do, however, see signs of hope.

I worked for a dive shop about 5-6 years ago that had a Director of Instruction who who gotten his credentials at a IDC in Utila. When we were about to train a group of DM candidates, and he wanted us to train them to do the skills the way he had been trained to do them, and the IDC had all the skills online. They were all on the knees. I refused, and our fight over that was one of the reasons I stopped working there.

I mention that because that IDC center now teaches all the skills neutrally buoyant, and its online demonstrations are well done. That is how their graduates--and they produce a lot of graduates--will do their skills at their IE.

I just googled to see what others are doing, and I found a bunch of IDC centers around the world saying that they now teach all skills neutrally buoyant. One of them introduces its explanation by saying that This is how PADI wants things done now.

So as painfully slow as I believe the change has been, it is still coming.