Is Halcyon price fixing?

[jonnythan]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
IMO, retail sales is a direct conflict of interest with instruction. I teach students not to use most of what the manufacturers want me to sell. If I don't sell it I'm out. If I don't sell it I don't teach. You see, we have cut ourselves out of many markets because we are already not playing by the rules.

Manufacturers do not like me.
Divers don't like me because either the cost of goods must go up or the cost of services must go up.
Everyone hates me I'm going to go eat worms.

Well, I don't hate you. Good instruction is something I can't buy from Spain, and I'd be more than willing to pay you fairly for your time for good instruction. I realize this isn't the mainstream thought, and most people won't. That doesn't bother me at all. There will always be highly competent instructors out there.. caving and SRT don't exactly have a massive industry and local shop infrastructure behind them, but it's not hard to find gear at reasonable prices and people to apprentice. Just look at GUE. They have what, a couple dozen guys who travel constantly just to meet the demands for the GUE classes. They get paid fairly (AFAIK).

So go into a business that is profitable, stop instructing, whatever. It doesn't matter to me because I know there will always be people out there willing to share their knowledge in one way or another, for pay or not. Hopefully I'll be one one day.

Getting enough new divers to support the LDS/Manufacturer complex doesn't matter to me either. I'll buy a compressor, or find someone with a compressor. I'll find someone more experienced than me who is willing to teach me a few things. If Mares, Dacor, Tusa, Sherwood, and US Divers collapse, that's no big deal. Someone will always make good wings, backplates are no problem. Someone will make drysuits, someone will make regulators, and someone will make tanks.

And, of course, there will always be teachers. Worst case.. maybe not organized classes, but there will *always, always* be someone more experienced than I willing to teach me. Period.

So, I'm not sad about the state of the "industry." Whatever. Nothing will keep me from diving, and I won't panic if the LDS goes away.

 

[MikeFerrara]

We won't panic either. Since we are having trouble finding an ethical (as I define it) way of making a shop profitable we will likely get out of it. I will still teach. We like to teach. However, one must get something out of it. If you don't get money you must at least feel that you accomplished something. There isn't much of a feeling of accomplishment associated with spending years and many thousands of dollars to give a good class to folks who don't value it. You can lead a horse to water...

I will likely teach but hand pick students as most of the good instructors I know do. Virtually all the good instructors (also so very knowlegable divers)I know have quit teaching for shops. In some cases they charge more in some cases less. What they all have in common is that they teach who they want and on their own terms. They choose who they will pass knowlege to.

There are many good instructors. Most will not be found at or through a shop. I will have time to paint my house and when I give up a cave dive to teach a class it will be worth my while one way or the other. We have worked too hard for too long to trade cheap cards for a few equipment sales only to be accused of gouging and price fixing and to have the student go to the carribean to prove what crappy divers they are and be a bad reflection on our teaching.

As time goes on I think we will see more of this. Kind of like getting into a good school, you will need to prove yourself before you get in.

 

[Genesis]

What I don't understand is why you, and others in your situation, put up with the price fixing.

You DO have a state AG, you know. And you also have an FTC. Why don't you and the others raise a stink? Yes, it might not get you anywhere, but can it make things WORSE? How?

There are things that are right and then things that are wrong. If something's wrong its wrong no matter how much you make doing it, and if its right it is no matter if its profitable or not.

I had a GOOD experience with a LDS today. I was surprised - but pleasantly so. Unfortunately they're too far away to be my "primary" place to go, but for stuff that I'm willing to travel for, they're an option...

 

[Aquamaniac]

Genisis
Ever thought of upgrading your soapbox to a Sea Container?

 

[MikeFerrara]

I guess for now the manufacturers can have their cake and eat it too. They have the shops willing to do their bidding and the on-line (non-dealer) folks to sell large volumes supposedly unsanctioned by the manufacturer. Someone, however purchased from the manufaqcturer so no matter how you look at it they made their money. Shops will not work together and individually nobody cares what we think (we're too small). Many shops just play ball and it's business as usual. We have attempted to negotiate with several manufacturers both for prices that put us in the game, for lower opening orders and for their blessing to provide service if we are not dealers. They never even took the discussion seriously let alone conceded anything. Our response has been to completely boycot certain companies. If you read through some of my posts it isn't hard too figure out which ones. I don't think they care. If enough industry pros shun them all they will have is the net and that won't be enough.

What stumps me is that even the leading proponents of improved training (you can fill in some names) seem to endorse some of the manufacturers that, as far as I'm comcerned, played a major part in inventing fast cheap training.

The industry as we know it has been shaped IMO, not by certification agencies but by the biggest manufacturers. They are the ones in control on all fronts.

 

[Genesis]

They are VERY interested in this.

Mike, you ought to make a couple of calls. You might find a receptive ear at the other end and, if you know other shops who don't like this and can name them, something might come of it.

 

[WreckWriter]

Genesis once bubbled...
They are VERY interested in this.

Mike, you ought to make a couple of calls. You might find a receptive ear at the other end and, if you know other shops who don't like this and can name them, something might come of it.

Why are you doing all this? Do you actually think you can do anything except cause bad feelings within the industry?

What happens when everything gets stirred up and your name comes out? Think the shops will cease to offer you service?

Think about it.

Tom

 

[dgangi]

WreckWriter once bubbled...


Why are you doing all this? Do you actually think you can do anything except cause bad feelings within the industry?

What happens when everything gets stirred up and your name comes out? Think the shops will cease to offer you service?

Think about it.

Tom

Why would you encourage somebody to give up a fight that is justified? Either you agree with the BS in the dive industry or you just don't care enough to get involved.

Regardless, Genesis does care enough to get involved and make some waves. Maybe he has too much time on his hands or maybe he's just a very tenacious person. Or maybe he's just an ornery person. I don't know Geneis (don't even know his name), but his points are very accurate and his approach is correct. He is standing up for something that he sees as wrong and is using the appropriate channels to fight it (government agencies). I hope he gets some action as it will benefit the entire diving community in the long run.

Complacency gets us nowhere. In fact, that's the behavior the perpetrators hope to maintain. Had Rosa Parks moved to the back of the bus because she "might make enemies", we might still have "WHITE ONLY" signs on our restaurants.

Who cares if enemies are made in the local dive industry? Change isn't always met with a standing ovation, especially by the ones who unfairly benefit from their current position of authority/control/whatever.

Thx...Doug

 

[Genesis]

Wreck - why am I doing this?

Because what's going on is wrong. I believe its illegal. I believe it can be stopped and that it will change. I believe that if I, and others, make enough noise, that some people might even go to prison.

My identity is not a secret. In fact, its trivial to figure out who I am, and a few people here and on other boards have. I don't make it difficult.

I am ornery. I ran a company for more than a decade (close to two, in fact) and played "by the rules." I was one of the few, and was none-too-quiet about the abuses in that industry either. Some of it calmed down, some did not. A few people ended up prosecuted eventually, and I helped "the fuzz" nail them. I did it then because it was the right thing to do, and I do it now because its the right thing to do.

I do not know if the LDS's in my area are for, against, or ambivalent about what I'm doing. I haven't asked them. Frankly, I don't give a rat's behind if they like it or not. If they're not complicit in what's going on then either they don't care or they will support it. In that case no harm done, no foul, and they might even like it.

IF they are complicit and try to retaliate for my not keeping my mouth shut like a good little muppet, then I will be more than happy to privately (you CAN under anti-trust law) go after them and will be a willing witness in any action the government takes on top of it. That could get ugly - for them.

What are they going to do, at the end of the day? Refuse me service? That's a cause of action all on its own as its being done in retaliation for "blowing the whistle." Dislike me? They can join the long list from my former industry - what's another few on the list? Deny me airfills? There's another shop. Not want me on their boat? I have my own. Conspire with the others in this area to try to completely cut me off? I'll go after all of them - I have the resources to do so - and add RICO while I'm at it. Refuse me training? What more do I need than the AOW I already have? Mix and/or tech? There are lots of agencies - and besides, if I blend my own I need only knowledge, not a certification. You think I can't find someone who has the knowledge and will train me in exchange for money? Of course I can....

Why should I be a muppet? Why should YOU be a muppet? Do you like being conspired against by shop owners and manufacturers? Really? You LIKE it?

Why?

Why is it that you think that distorting competition and the free marketplace is a good thing?

Would you like the same thing done with gasoline, bread, milk, automobiles or houses? How about your job on the wage side?

Why do we not tolerate it anywhere else, but its "ok" here?

Does the shop exist to serve you as a customer, or do you exist to serve them as a slave?

Something to think about.

Oh Wreckwriter - just remember one thing - the former SRA (association) was driven out of business over threats to blackball a manufacturer that didn't cowtow to the "LDS sales only" policy line. They were sued - twice - and the second time it was fatal - over EXACTLY this kind of conduct that you not-so-subtly intimate may befall me.

Think I don't have the resources to press such a suit? Better think again - I do and I will, and owning a bunch of prime real estate along with a few dive boats would be quite a nice prize for such conduct aimed at me.

 

[WreckWriter]

Genesis once bubbled...
Think I don't have the resources to press such a suit? Better think again - I do and I will, and owning a bunch of prime real estate along with a few dive boats would be quite a nice prize for such conduct aimed at me.

Oh no, I don't think that at all. I can tell by your attitude that you have lots of money. I can tell other things about you as well.

Go ahead, trash the dive industry, drive everyone out of business. Just be careful you don't swallow the silver spoon that you were born with in your mouth.

Lawsuit happy boys like like you are much of what's wrong in this country.

You don't care about any of this, you see a way to build your own bank account. I'm sure it will work.

Tom