Is guided diving bad for developing skills?

[Centrals]

1. In this part of the world ie. SE Asia nearly all the dives are guided.
2. The dive guide is just a guide and nothing more, he/she will help you if necessary eg. low on air.
3. It is the diver's responsibility to improve his/her skill and look after themselves.
4. Tuition is left with qualified instructor.
5. Think about what "IF" if you are totally rely on the dive guide for everything !!

 

[Tigerman]

Storker, I assume by the description you give of the brief (and the rest of the experience) that you either didnt go to egypt or you went with an op that had a lot of certain eastern european divers?
The brief should be thorough enough that if you get separated from the guide, you can at a minimum find a safe ascent and preferrably complete the dive on your own. Personally I have waved bye bye to the guide a few times letting them know Im off in a different direction or continuing the dive in "this direction" as they abort with someone.
I have also lost sight of the guide on a few occasions thanks to my camera, which is a non-event as long as youre not the only one disappearing.
That said, I tend to dive with guides and as part of larger groups that are confident in eachothers ability to complete a dive safely, from entry to exit if need be.
And need has been as Ive had an instructor have to bail 10 minutes into the dive due to a major gear malfunction. He grabbed his "victim guest" and as soon as he was sorted out I just signaled to him that "hey, the rest of us is just gonna go here now, bye bye" (and then we picked on him for the next two weeks)

---------- Post added December 13th, 2013 at 02:53 AM ----------

Hopefully with the major changes coming to diving thanks to PADI updating the course requriements we will see more and more people questioning the guided vacation diving scenario as their 'something aint right' detectors will be going off more and more with the production of better OW divers right out of graduation

There is nothing inherently wrong with guided vacation diving whatsoever...
What COULD be wrong is the dive planning and lack of understanding of said dive plan, but thats not neccesarilly a given either.

Regarding all the "its not about where youre certified trash" - yes it very much is. Not because youll be a better diver after 1000 dives, but because youll be better straight out of class and have a better base to build on IF YOU GIVE A $617 by getting certified in more difficult conditions...

 

[DivemasterDennis]

Let's all take a deep breath and settle down here. The fact is that EVERY DIVE is a dive on which skills can be improved, or practiced, and expanded. Debbie and I prefer to dive our own profiles and do in about 80% of our dives. On the others, "guided dives" if you will, we still do not surrender control of our dive to others. We will stay with them unless we have a nedd to end the dive before they do. We will explore the area covered by the dive at our pace, keeping the group in view and closing up when appropriate. Many divers prefer to not worry about navigation, and just want to be, in Jim Lapenta's terms, "dive tourists." I have spent some good times leading "dive tourists" on dives. It is a shame some people have an attitude about that kind of diving. It is what it is, and if it is not what you want, then here is my suggestion, which is how I solved the problem. Take appropriate courses to get a professional rating from a recognized agency, and keep your instructor/dive leader insurance in place all the time. Then when you head to a dive destination show your credential and insurance and essentially you are just hitching a ride on the boat after which you are on your own. If you are shore diving, you don't need anything but a c-card to rent tanks. DO the diving you enjoy, and get the credentials and insurance you need to be able to do so. And of course, have the skills necessary: especially dive planning and navigation skills.
DivemasterDennis

 

[rivers]

Let's all take a deep breath and settle down here. The fact is that EVERY DIVE is a dive on which skills can be improved, or practiced, and expanded. Debbie and I prefer to dive our own profiles and do in about 80% of our dives. On the others, "guided dives" if you will, we still do not surrender control of our dive to others. We will stay with them unless we have a nedd to end the dive before they do. We will explore the area covered by the dive at our pace, keeping the group in view and closing up when appropriate. Many divers prefer to not worry about navigation, and just want to be, in Jim Lapenta's terms, "dive tourists." I have spent some good times leading "dive tourists" on dives. It is a shame some people have an attitude about that kind of diving. It is what it is, and if it is not what you want, then here is my suggestion, which is how I solved the problem. Take appropriate courses to get a professional rating from a recognized agency, and keep your instructor/dive leader insurance in place all the time. Then when you head to a dive destination show your credential and insurance and essentially you are just hitching a ride on the boat after which you are on your own. If you are shore diving, you don't need anything but a c-card to rent tanks. DO the diving you enjoy, and get the credentials and insurance you need to be able to do so. And of course, have the skills necessary: especially dive planning and navigation skills.
DivemasterDennis

Dennis,
Why should I, as an active diver, have to shell out for DM or equivalent if I feel like diving without a guide on holiday? I have no desire to become a DM or an instructor. I've thought about it in the past, but have decided that I want to dive for me. It's my escape from the daily toil of life if you will.
I haven't been on a guided dive in nearly 3 years. All of my dives are just myself and my team, either exploring a wreck, drifting with the current, or bimbling about an inland site.
I shouldn't need a DM credential to do the dives that I want to do. I am a capable, certified, and very active diver.

 

[Tigerman]

The thing is that some places in the world there might be legal requirements of having a LOCALLY EMPLOYED DM in the water..
You being a DM wouldnt help on that little issue of course as you wouldnt be locally employed..

 

[Centrals]

Why should I, as an active diver, have to shell out for DM or equivalent if I feel like diving without a guide on holiday? I have no desire to become a DM or an instructor. I've thought about it in the past, but have decided that I want to dive for me. It's my escape from the daily toil of life if you will.
I haven't been on a guided dive in nearly 3 years. All of my dives are just myself and my team, either exploring a wreck, drifting with the current, or bimbling about an inland site.
I shouldn't need a DM credential to do the dives that I want to do. I am a capable, certified, and very active diver.

You don't have a choice especially in SE Asia(eg. Indonesia, Malaysia, Maldives, Philippines, PNG, Taiwan and Thailand). Your certification, experience, deep pocket etc etc count nothing.
BTW, you also contribute to the local employment.
You will be OK in Queensland though.

 

[Wingy]

Everything Centrals said except....PNG is NOT in South East Asia!!! West Papua Yes, PNG no. And in PNG you have no choice either, good luck rocking up at Alotoa or Tuvali or booking on Febrina and saying you refuse to have a guided dive.

 

[CT-Rich]

It is interesting, the question of whether someone should be worried about the dive skills of others. Should my beliefs about diving dictate what another person living at the other side of the Earth should do with their leisure time? If joe blow wants to dive as an occasional tourist on his annual holiday following a dive guide around like a sheep after a bell, I can understand that. Not every person who straps on a tank is going to spend the time and the money to become a super diver like me. The guy who spends a week in Bonaire escaping from his dull Midwestern life may not want to invest in a wetsuit and gear to dive an empty quarry on his summer weekends.

I grew up diving New England and I consider it a great dive if I can see more than 5 meters. I am used to chop, restrictive amounts of thermal protection and have a good time doing it. Should all divers be as well trained as me? Be nice if the world were perfect, but it would be my world. If I could make the world over, the quality of diver training would be way down my list (bottled water would be gone and cars would all be solar electric and I would be bang-.... never mind).

Considering how long it takes for coral to grow and the problems created by thoughtless tourists, above and below the water, I can understand the reasons dive destinations have draconian requirements. Rules are made for the lowest common denominator, not the exception. If only 0.1% of the eco-tourists drop trash in the woods or kick over a coral fan, or get into trouble because of lack of supervision (technique wise or ecologically). That destination isn't going to be very attractive after a million divers descend on it. If you want proof, go for a walk along almost any US river, most of the trash you see was not dump by evil intent, it was the result of people who simply didn't think about what they were doing or by accident.

Guided dives are about seeing the good stuff, having fun. Not every certified diver is going to read dive forums or practice drills in the pool all winter. To do so is the choice of an enthusiast. Not every guy with a sports car wants to drive formula one, sometimes they want to just pass a slow truck.

 

[Centrals]

.....Guided dives are about seeing the good stuff, having fun......

Lembeth in Indonesia is well known for macro. I can't imagine any diver would like to turn up there without any dive-guide with eagle eyes!!!! The poor soul will be cursing and kicking himself for being such a fool. Unless he likes to admire the black sand.

---------- Post added December 15th, 2013 at 09:39 AM ----------

Everything Centrals said except....PNG is NOT in South East Asia!!! West Papua Yes, PNG no. And in PNG you have no choice either, good luck rocking up at Alotoa or Tuvali or booking on Febrina and saying you refuse to have a guided dive.

I still prefer the old name of Irian Jaya than West Papua(same apply to Burma and City of Saigon)!! Difficult to teach old dog with new trick!!!!
How Irian Jaya voted to remain in Indonesia is beyond me?

 

[Tigerman]

Lembeth in Indonesia is well known for macro. I can't imagine any diver would like to turn up there without any dive-guide with eagle eyes!!!! The poor soul will be cursing and kicking himself for being such a fool. Unless he likes to admire the black sand.
...

Although I agree that having a guide in new places, especially when not very familiar with how to find things - I tend to find just as much macro life as the guides (which is why I always end up in the back of the group) and on occasions Ive had the guides go after the dive "I just followed the guy whit the huge camera, cause he found all the good stuff anyways"..
Finding stuff is a learned "skill" just as much as it is about memorizing where "Bob" and "Winston" live. The combination of both is of course better than just one of them tho..

Oh, and I usually do it wearing a wetsuit thats starting to noticably worn and as such create MUCH more drag than it should, as well as a weight integrated BCD and split fins - so really, you dont wanna hang around me, Im an accident waiting to happen! (and besides, me and my buddy want the fotoshoot to ourselves )