Is a Pony Bottle too complicated for a beginner?

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MikeWD

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The pony is there for when your out of air regardless of the reason, if it's stupidity it should be corrected, but the pony is for when you run out of air.



The agencies teach NDL buddy diving, and if done properly there is no need for a pony.



In the 1980 PADI OW manual, the pony was discussed, as was the alternate second, as safety equipment for divers. The class was taught with a single second stage as was the norm at that time. I picked up an alternate second within the following year. I don't know if they still cover the alternative now.

PADI OW e-learning covers pony bottles ... for about 15 seconds
 

Bob DBF

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PADI OW e-learning covers pony bottles ... for about 15 seconds

Thanks. Was it only as a redundant source, or for use instead of an alternate second. Or perhaps so fast you don't recall.
 

Julius SCHMIDT

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Ο πρωταρχικός λόγος για ένα πόνυ είναι επειδή έχετε απορροφήσει το πρωτεύον

The primary reason for a pony is because you have sucked down your primary


επειδή δεν δώσατε προσοχή στο spg σας, το οποίο είναι το μόνο σημαντικό πράγμα που πρέπει πραγματικά να κάνετε ως δύτης, οπότε το συμπέρασμά μου είναι ότι εάν δεν βουτήξετε στη ζώνη συγκέντρωσης που απαιτείται για μια τόσο απλή αλλά πολύ σημαντική ζωή διατήρηση της διαδικασίας ως παρακολούθηση spg, σταματήστε την κατάδυση μέχρι να αποφασίσετε

Το πόνυ δεν θα σώσει από την ανικανότητα, ούτε θα φοράει ένα ικανό ή ασφαλές ή σόλο δύτη

εάν δεν μπορείτε να διαχειριστείτε τον κύριο αέρα σας

because you were not paying attention to your spg, which is the only important thing you really need to do as a diver, so my conclusion is that if you do not dive in the concentration zone that is required for such a simple but very important life sustaining procedure as spg monitoring, stop diving until you decide to.

The pony will not save from incompetence nor will wearing one a competent or safe or solo diver make

if you can't manage your primary air


Επομένως, εξασκηθείτε στη διαχείριση των πρωταρχικών σας δυτών και δεν θα υπάρχει λόγος να διαχειριστείτε ένα πόνι

So practice managing your primary air divers and there will be no reason to manage a pony



Είναι όλα ελληνικά για μένα!

It's all Greek to me!
 

stepfen

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Ο πρωταρχικός λόγος για ένα πόνυ είναι επειδή έχετε απορροφήσει το πρωτεύον




επειδή δεν δώσατε προσοχή στο spg σας, το οποίο είναι το μόνο σημαντικό πράγμα που πρέπει πραγματικά να κάνετε ως δύτης, οπότε το συμπέρασμά μου είναι ότι εάν δεν βουτήξετε στη ζώνη συγκέντρωσης που απαιτείται για μια τόσο απλή αλλά πολύ σημαντική ζωή διατήρηση της διαδικασίας ως παρακολούθηση spg, σταματήστε την κατάδυση μέχρι να αποφασίσετε

Το πόνυ δεν θα σώσει από την ανικανότητα, ούτε θα φοράει ένα ικανό ή ασφαλές ή σόλο δύτη

εάν δεν μπορείτε να διαχειριστείτε τον κύριο αέρα σας

because you were not paying attention to your spg, which is the only important thing you really need to do as a diver, so my conclusion is that if you do not dive in the concentration zone that is required for such a simple but very important life sustaining procedure as spg monitoring, stop diving until you decide to.

The pony will not save from incompetence nor will wearing one a competent or safe or solo diver make

if you can't manage your primary air


Επομένως, εξασκηθείτε στη διαχείριση των πρωταρχικών σας δυτών και δεν θα υπάρχει λόγος να διαχειριστείτε ένα πόνι

So practice managing your primary air divers and there will be no reason to manage a pony



Είναι όλα ελληνικά για μένα!

It's all Greek to me!

No matter how many times one looks at the SPG, a catastrophic failure in the reg system can be a serious problem. Add to this a bit of depth, dive times close or past to NDL, and/or solo diving and you get a nice set of reasons to carry a pony just in case.
My 2c as always.

Είναι όλα αγγλικά για μένα!
 

SlugMug

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Ο πρωταρχικός λόγος για ένα πόνυ είναι επειδή έχετε απορροφήσει το πρωτεύον




επειδή δεν δώσατε προσοχή στο spg σας, το οποίο είναι το μόνο σημαντικό πράγμα που πρέπει πραγματικά να κάνετε ως δύτης, οπότε το συμπέρασμά μου είναι ότι εάν δεν βουτήξετε στη ζώνη συγκέντρωσης που απαιτείται για μια τόσο απλή αλλά πολύ σημαντική ζωή διατήρηση της διαδικασίας ως παρακολούθηση spg, σταματήστε την κατάδυση μέχρι να αποφασίσετε

Το πόνυ δεν θα σώσει από την ανικανότητα, ούτε θα φοράει ένα ικανό ή ασφαλές ή σόλο δύτη

εάν δεν μπορείτε να διαχειριστείτε τον κύριο αέρα σας

because you were not paying attention to your spg, which is the only important thing you really need to do as a diver, so my conclusion is that if you do not dive in the concentration zone that is required for such a simple but very important life sustaining procedure as spg monitoring, stop diving until you decide to.

The pony will not save from incompetence nor will wearing one a competent or safe or solo diver make

if you can't manage your primary air


Επομένως, εξασκηθείτε στη διαχείριση των πρωταρχικών σας δυτών και δεν θα υπάρχει λόγος να διαχειριστείτε ένα πόνι

So practice managing your primary air divers and there will be no reason to manage a pony



Είναι όλα ελληνικά για μένα!

It's all Greek to me!
That's a major misrepresentation of why people use pony-bottles. The pony-bottle doesn't make me safe, most of my dives are without one.

I'd ditch the pony-bottle if the only reason for wearing it was running out of air prematurely. (For that scenario, I'd fix my air-checking routine, and potentially get an EPG or integrated air which alarms at low psi). I'd be shocked if I ran out of air prematurely, and personally have never started a safety stop below 500psi. I'm always paying attention to dive-time & after 1000psi paying close attention. I agree that nobody should be using a pony bottle as a dive-extender or spg-monitoring substitute, but otherwise the above is strawman argument. "No reason?" You're just ignoring all of the other reasons listed in this thread numerous times.

The reason I wear a pony as a solo-diver is about 95% equipment failure, 2% hand off to other divers, 1.9% other emergencies, and 0.1% running out of air unexpectedly. To me, it's like having relatively inexpensive insurance. The few hundred dollars I invested is tiny compared to the prospect of dying or experiencing severe decompression sickness in the event that **** goes sideways unexpectedly.
 

markmud

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It feels to me like people might need to get on the same page about some terms.

Even just "new diver" can mean wildly different things that impact this discussion.
  • Diver 1: < 20 dives, Comfortable in the water, has their own gear, and plans to do a lot of local diving in easy conditions (lakes, ponds, etc) to practice
    • IMO this diver is perfectly capable of adding a pony and using it safely
  • Diver 2: <20 dives. Had trouble with their skills, freaked out at mask clearing, rents gear and plans to dive on vacation on the occasional charter
    • IMO this diver is going to do more harm than good by adding things to manage
Same thing with the term "dive". What kind of diving? Where? What conditions? A New England diver diving with strangers on charters has a much different problem to evaluate than a tropical diver who always dives with their best friend.

If people are debating, and each has a different version of what a term means in their head, without clarifying, no one will make any progress and everyone will just feel like the other person is an idiot.

This is the money post. This answered the OP's question perfectly. Bravo to Moerae!

Yeah, I know my tone was a little over the top and it was intentional, but I am reticent to cede personal responsibility to a training agency(s).

And acknowledging that we can not BASH an agency, the strongest thing I will say is that: their perspective changes with time and technological, their training has been streamlined over the years and just because they feel the accident rate is acceptable, does not mean that the individual diver should necessarily accept their conclusion regarding safety equipment without a good bit of thought.

Someone can make a pretty solid argument that pony bottles may not be necessary, but I encourage people to think for themselves.

Money post #2: Bravo!

cheers,
m
 

Ucarkus

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Add to this a bit of depth, dive times close or past to NDL, and/or solo diving and you get a nice set of reasons to carry a pony just in case
Should beginner diver do all these?
I also don’t get this fear of sudden catastrophic failure of equipment. It normally how divers use the equipment is the problem.
What if I asked “is an SLR camera with dual strobes and focus lights too complicated for a beginner?” What would be your answers?
 

stepfen

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Should beginner diver do all these?
What if I asked “is an SLR camera with dual strobes and focus lights too complicated for a beginner?” What would be your answers?

My view for beginners was given in post #59 Is a Pony Bottle too complicated for a beginner?
To sum it up again here to me a diver should not be carrying a pony unless he has buoyancy control good enough to be able to handle it properly underwater (be able to don/doff it, employ it etc while holding position). New divers are usually not there yet.

After 14 pages the discussion has drifted to whether ponies should be used or not at all and that is what I was addressing in post #135.

Obviously beginners should not be diving deep enough, for long enough and far enough from a buddy to make carrying a pony necessary. That's another point why beginners shouldn't be carrying one. BUT more experienced divers who can dive deeper, longer and solo to me should be (or at least would be usually better of) carrying one.

I also don’t get this fear of sudden catastrophic failure of equipment. It normally how divers use the equipment is the problem.
"Normally" is the magic word here. Occasionally equipment fail too and I don't know about you, but I want to be prepared for that case too.

What if I asked “is an SLR camera with dual strobes and focus lights too complicated for a beginner?” What would be your answers?

Exactly the same goes to an SLR camera with dual (or even single :) ) strobes. The diver should be comfortable enough to carry and use it safely i.e. be very good with buoyancy, situational awareness etc before considering carrying one. These usually beginners don't have, hence it is a big no no for most if not all cases.

I think we agree. Maybe it is because I am not native English speaker hence I don't express myself clear enough.

And as always just my 2c.

Cheers
 
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