Is a Pony Bottle too complicated for a beginner?

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My pure speculation is that the particular failure mode where a reg stops delivering gas is exceedingly rare.

Agreed. I only know two people who experienced this. But the sample of divers I know, even virtually, is NOT statistically significant. How many people have ever had to share gas? Probably a larger percentage due to people not paying attention to their gas.

[deleted as it is going off topic and belongs in another thread of a topic that has been beated to death - yes, Kosta is exercising some self control. Shocking!]
 
Oh, c'mon, @johndiver999 , I only meant that the training agencies, who have a vested interest in keeping the hobby going by enabling their OW graduates to dive safely and enjoyably, have been giving this particular and very fundamental issue of how to avoid drowning from lack of something to breathe their collective attention a lot longer than we have, and their methodology seems to be working.

Yeah, I know my tone was a little over the top and it was intentional, but I am reticent to cede personal responsibility to a training agency(s).

And acknowledging that we can not BASH an agency, the strongest thing I will say is that: their perspective changes with time and technological, their training has been streamlined over the years and just because they feel the accident rate is acceptable, does not mean that the individual diver should necessarily accept their conclusion regarding safety equipment without a good bit of thought.

Someone can make a pretty solid argument that pony bottles may not be necessary, but I encourage people to think for themselves.
 
It feels to me like people might need to get on the same page about some terms.

Even just "new diver" can mean wildly different things that impact this discussion.
  • Diver 1: < 20 dives, Comfortable in the water, has their own gear, and plans to do a lot of local diving in easy conditions (lakes, ponds, etc) to practice
    • IMO this diver is perfectly capable of adding a pony and using it safely
  • Diver 2: <20 dives. Had trouble with their skills, freaked out at mask clearing, rents gear and plans to dive on vacation on the occasional charter
    • IMO this diver is going to do more harm than good by adding things to manage
Same thing with the term "dive". What kind of diving? Where? What conditions? A New England diver diving with strangers on charters has a much different problem to evaluate than a tropical diver who always dives with their best friend.

If people are debating, and each has a different version of what a term means in their head, without clarifying, no one will make any progress and everyone will just feel like the other person is an idiot.
 
I made a deal with my LDS, to include my pony on my unlimited fill card.

I used my pony slung ion the left for around 25-30 dives, before I moved it to diagonal. I have now done 136 dives total, with a pony..
Lucky! I've tried to cut similar deals with local dive-centers, to see if they'd fill 2x 40 cus for an 80 cu, or do fill-cards, etc. Thanks for sharing pictures.

Kosta, if a pony is such a valuable safety device, why do none of the training agencies teach a pony as standard equipment in the OW course?

Could it be implicit that the training agencies believe diving is safe enough without a pony? If a pony is analogous to airbags or seatbelts, as some here have implied, why is diving without a pony the baseline gear configuration across all agencies? I can only speculate that there isn't a widespread belief that "ponies save lives." Maybe a car crash is a lot more common than the kind of catastrophic reg failure scenario (i.e., fails to deliver air AND no buddy around AND too deep for a CESA, etc.) contemplated in this thread? Is it really a "valuable safety device" for all divers, or for the baseline diver is it more of a security blanket against a bogeyman?

Describing someone else's reasons is always a risk of strawmanning someone else's position. It appears the #1 reason pony-bottles are discouraged is because of their belief that a pony will lead divers towards risky behaviors. After that, I expect their reasons are:
  • Increased complexity
  • It's unnecessary, when diving with a buddy, which they say you should always dive with a buddy
  • It's more equipment and an added expense
  • You don't want to rely on something you may not always have on you.
  • They'd have to properly train the pony, which takes time, and adds costs.
  • They can charge you $ for a solo-diver class/specialty.
  • Dive agencies tend to be very slow to change.
These are perhaps adequate reason to not start brand-new divers with pony-bottles. However, if someone is willing to pony up cash for a redundant air setup, and willing to behave responsibly (i.e. not use it as a dive-extender), then I don't think any of these reasons should deter a diver.

We should follow exactly what the training agencies specify for our gear. There is no room for personal responsibility and/or thinking independently.

Of course when an agency says that 10 yr olds can get certified, we obviously MUST accept their expert thinking.

Of course when the training agencies allow Air -2's, then we MUST accept that as safe option, regardless of our own opinions.

And don't forget that an octopus regulator is NOT required or necessary, unless of course the training agencies change their collective minds and subsequently require it for all dives.

Shall I also mention the change with respect to power inflators on BC's, or shall we go back to the ever popular requirement that snorkels are necessary, yet many people just seem to "know better". How about solo diving? That was proscribed as best I know for a long time, but now it is OK if you buy the right course and take the right gear.

Follow the directives of the agencies and don't think for yourself. Just trust them, they know better about your diving.

And while I am at it, that cross chest configuration looks way cluttered to me, I think I would prefer a slung position or back mounted.

:rofl3:
 
. . . Describing someone else's reasons is always a risk of strawmanning someone else's position. It appears the #1 reason pony-bottles are discouraged is because of their belief that a pony will lead divers towards risky behaviors. After that, I expect their reasons are:
  • Increased complexity
  • It's unnecessary, when diving with a buddy, which they say you should always dive with a buddy
  • It's more equipment and an added expense
  • You don't want to rely on something you may not always have on you.
  • They'd have to properly train the pony, which takes time, and adds costs.
  • They can charge you $ for a solo-diver class/specialty.
  • Dive agencies tend to be very slow to change.
These are perhaps adequate reason to not start brand-new divers with pony-bottles. However, if someone is willing to pony up cash for a redundant air setup, and willing to behave responsibly (i.e. not use it as a dive-extender), then I don't think any of these reasons should deter a diver.

Perhaps a minor nuance here, but my observation was not that training agencies "discourage" pony bottles (they may--I really don't know) but that none of them consider a pony to be part of the baseline equipment for new divers. We might criticize certain bits of what they teach or don't teach, but the training agencies have done a good job of enabling the masses to learn to dive safely and enjoyably (part of which is being minimally burdened by gear and its usage and maintenance). Of course, if a diver, even a "new" diver, is not one of "the masses" but has some more unique circumstances, such as the New England offshore insta-buddy diver that @Moerae used as an example, then by all means ponying up may be a solution. I doubt most divers worldwide own their own tanks of any kind--renting is more common. (We're not a common bunch here in these discussions.) My "concern" (as though it really makes any difference to me what others do) is that new divers who come across mentions of ponies will get the idea that this is necessary safety equipment for everyone.
 
I'd argue that a properly trained open water diver is capable of handling a pony. Yes, someone with only 4 open water training dives. Key words: properly trained. The way all divers should be trained. It isn't hard.
 
:deadhorse:
 
Yup. That was the topic that had been beaten to death to which I was referring.

Some equipment/style of diving (i.e., technical, rebreather, cave, wreck, deep, drift, etc., etc.) is going to beyond some people. Some people don't belong in the water as they are a fatality waiting to happen at the first mishap. Fortunately, properly maintained equipment is exceedingly rare.
 
Yup. That was the topic that had been beaten to death to which I was referring.

Some equipment/style of diving (i.e., technical, rebreather, cave, wreck, deep, drift, etc., etc.) is going to beyond some people. Some people don't belong in the water as they are a fatality waiting to happen at the first mishap. Fortunately, properly maintained equipment is exceedingly rare.


I was not comfortable in current until dive 35ish ... now ... drift?, yes pls.
 
Anyone who sucked down their primary & relies on their pony is absolutely doing things wrong & should fix whatever reason they're running out of air, and resort to safer dives.

The pony is there for when your out of air regardless of the reason, if it's stupidity it should be corrected, but the pony is for when you run out of air.

...why do none of the training agencies teach a pony as standard equipment in the OW course?

The agencies teach NDL buddy diving, and if done properly there is no need for a pony.

Perhaps a minor nuance here, but my observation was not that training agencies "discourage" pony bottles (they may--I really don't know) but that none of them consider a pony to be part of the baseline equipment for new divers.

In the 1980 PADI OW manual, the pony was discussed, as was the alternate second, as safety equipment for divers. The class was taught with a single second stage as was the norm at that time. I picked up an alternate second within the following year. I don't know if they still cover the alternative now.
 
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