Is a Pony Bottle too complicated for a beginner?

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You appear to skip things said, otherwise.

So now it is an emergency, but you are going to ascend at 3m/min? Right.
Pony bottles are not for extending bottom time; you keep saying that, but no one else is. You even asked why they aren't part of the gas plan; the reason is they are not part of your plan. They are a redundant gas source, for an emergency. An emergency like no buddy. You say you ALWAYS have a buddy. Right. You are so special.

1. Minimum gas is to get you and your buddy to the surface safely. period. (That is your planned emergency gas source)
2. 3m or 10 ft/minute is a safe and calm ascent rate to the surface. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. If you start to go faster, folks begin to make mistakes and panic. The emergency is over if I have given you a working regulator, considering we both know we have enough gas to get us both to the surface.
3. You do not need a redundant gas source if you have calculated the minimum gas in your tank. Once the team hits MG, the dive is over.
4. I always have a buddy because I do not dive solo; I dive in a team/community that follows these procedures.
 
Good question, and the times allotted in your MG calculations give you some wiggle room. But, there is always room for separation and bad days. So, with that said, you have already calculated your MG for the team, so you know, you have more gas than 1500 psi in our example, and you are at max 80ft. How long would it take you for a direct ascent to the surface at that depth if you couldn't reach your buddy?

Caveat: We dive as a team in formations and close to each other, with powerful primary lights for communication, but I know other divers do not do this so to each their own, but that is my "dogma" I follow when I dive.
Final, and probably most salient point for the OP, how much do you trust your buddy? You have a long term buddy you trust. The OP may be going the insta-buddy route. He wants a pony so he doesn’t have to trust a person of equally limited skills. If he is donating, he can unclip the pony and not have a freaking out diver climbing on top of him and creating a drowning hazard.
 
I think some of us have done that already but it seems that the answer is always gas management.:rolleyes:
Well, I think his point was a well disciplined dive buddy who will never stray, which is what a lot of divers rely on and that is completely valid. He doesn’t want/need a pony. The OP doesn’t trust the inexperienced newbie divers and wants a pony, also completely valid. My experience is I will be more help to the newbie buddy than they will be to me. I plan accordingly.
 
Well, I think his point was a well disciplined dive buddy who will never stray, which is what a lot of divers rely on and that is completely valid. He doesn’t want/need a pony. The OP doesn’t trust the inexperienced newbie divers and wants a pony, also completely valid. My experience is I will be more help to the newbie buddy than they will be to me. I plan accordingly.

Which works fine most of the time. It is just when it doesn't that is the problem. My sole objective is to prevent anyone discouraging others who are thinking of taking a simple redundant gas supply with them, something that I find too frequently in these types of threads.
 
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I will add some comments here, not as a Mod Post, but as a user.

The OP's original question was answered, back in May/June. He has not participated in the thread since then, and has moved on to several other, quite interesting and worthwhile, questions posed in other forums.

I am intrigued that in recent posts there seems to be assertions of 'dogma', and taking of dogmatic positions, in this thread. Frankly, reading through the entire thread, I think the sources of those assertions reside on both sides of the, shall we say, 'argument'. OK, we know it should be a 'discussion', right? :)

Perhaps, it might be more useful, if we wish to continue to discuss this thread - long after the OP has left the discussion - to look at where we can agree, and to articulate, in a reasonably dispassionate way, our reasons for disagreement, where that is the case.

Is a pony bottle, or backmounted manifolded doubles, or sidemounted independent doubles, a 'better' or 'best' approach to carrying a redundant air supply? My answer, would be, in fact my answer is, 'it depends'. I suspect most would not disagree. I dive a pony for certain dives - deep (>60 fgeet) recreational dives, for example, or for Public Safety diving, where it is a team requirement. A slung 30-40 cf pony is reasonably easy to manage, for me at least. But, my personal favorite rig to provide redundant gas supply is a set of double, backmounted AL 80s. The rig is reasonably light (even consiodering my knees and shoulders), it trims out very nicely, etc. But, there are times / circumstances where that rig may be impractical - some boats don't accomodate manifolded doubles very well, and I don't particularly fancy a long walk in backmounted doubles to a shore to water entry, over uneven terrain. As an aside, can new divers learn to dive initially with backmounted doubles? Of course they can. Let's give new divers at least some credit for intelligence, and competence! Is it the most conveneient approach in the context of instruction? Maybe not. Can new divers learn to dive initially with a slung pony? Of course they can! Can new divers learn to dive initially with sidemounted doubles? Of course they can. Now, there are practical equipment issues. I have a class of 6 OW students. Which is easiest for ME - providing 6 single cylinders, or 6 pony bottles, or 6 sets of doubles? I have no problem putting a newly certified diver in the pool with a set of BM doubles, so they can learn how to use them. Frankly, I don't have to deal with possibly confusing second stage issues. But, it is also a bit easier to teach them good dive planning, and how to use their single cylinder - correctly.

Is it appropriate to encourage divers to plan EVERY dive? My answer would be, yes. No one is saying that we have to have an 'Andrea Doria', technical dive approach to planning every dive. But, as I just said to 6 OW students this past weekend, 'you should plan EVERY dive', to some extent. And, you should have at least some idea of what YOUR gas consumption is, even if that idea is simply ordinal - i.e. 'I use a lot of gas' vs 'I don't use a lot of gas'. Sure, the intensity of planning may vary according to the dive, but there should be some element of 'planning' every time you go in the water - What are we going to do? How deep are we going to go? What will be out turn-around / cut-off points? That process has absolutely NOTHING to do with a specific certifying agency, by the way. EVERY credentialing agency that I am aware of would endorse that concept (even if some / many diver certified through that agency don'ty seem to do it).

I suspect that many of us have certain practices that we think are 'better'. For example, I think that a 'primary donate' gas sharing system is better than a secondary donate system, in the event of an out of air situation. I have very specific reasons for that belief, which have nothing to do with any agency through which I have been trained or credentialed. That belief is also what I share with divers with whom I work. And, I readily admit it is not what I teach at first in Open Water (at least not yet :)).. Secondary donate is not 'bad', it just isn't as good - in my opinion - as primary donate. But, if divers I work with don't agree, no problem. I also believe that the DAN diving accident data show that 'interruption of the gas supply', in some form, is the numerically most common source of diver accidents / deaths. And, it is also my conclusion from those same data that the most common cause of gas supply interruptions is diver error, not equipment failure. So, I also conclude that I should put emphasis on dive planning and gas management in my treaching. But, I also acknowledge that equipment failure may occur. Now, that is what I have concluded - thus far. If additional data become available, that might cause me to view things differently, I am very willing to consider those data.

If someone disagrees with my beliefs, I don't look for MY perceptions of possible biases in their personality, or their training, or their agency affiliation, or their age. I look to understand their reasoning. I would encourage those involved in this discussion to do the same. By the way, it just might be that an important step in that process is to also look at OUR own biases, and personality, and training, and agency affiliation, etc. Just a thought..
 
I don't disagree with anything you've said, but the discussion has value in this forum far beyond the OP.

People will find this thread and get confused...all the assertions about doubles being "better" are nonsense in the context of this forum and of this thread.

The Chairman likes to posit that nonsense sinks to the bottom and the facts and good stuff rise to the top, over time. Perhaps, but the reader doesn't know that, esepcially if they come to the thread from a search and just pick up on a few posts. They can easily read the wrong ones, and go away with bad info.

It is too bad there is no way to score the posts, after the fact, so there is some sense of peer-review and of a curated discussion. Something that has value beyond the utterances themselves, and helps the read sort through the chaff. Not moderation -- that happens in real time. Curation is really the point. Perhaps a long discussion could be summarized as a sticky to the thread, or an intro that says "post #XX" is really the gist of this thread.
 
Let's you and I do a virtual dive to 80ft on single AL '80s, shall we? And in that dive, you have a seat failure where you start to lose your gas supply.

Dive Plan:

A critical goal in planning a dive in open water is determining how much gas is necessary for an emergency scenario, as you have listed above.
With that in mind, we want to plan for one diver to suffer an out-of-gas emergency during the deepest part of the dive, which provides sufficient reserves for any range of potential problems within the buddy group.

Let's make a few educated assumptions that leave us all with a bit of room for conservatism.
1. Let's assume that our average surface consumption rate is ~ 20 L/ 0.75 cuft per minute.
2. The assumed ascent speed will be on average 3m/10 ft per minute.
3. The average depth of the ascent is used for all calculations. Divers should attempt to maintain a controlled ascent of between 20 to 30 feet per minute and follow minimum deco (MDL/NDL) profiles. This is based on a slow but foreseeable ascent rate that provides some wiggle room for safety. Also, the 20 L/ 0.75 cuft per minute SCR is approximate based on the outcome of an average diver in most situations.
• MG should never be less than 40 bar/600psi to account for inaccuracy and/or readability in SPG's.
Let's determine our minimum gas for the dive.

Consumption= 0.75 SCR x 2 divers= 1.5 cuft /min

ATA: (80ft / 2 = 40ft); (40 ft / 33 +1 = 2.2 ATA

Time: 11 minutes (10ft/min ascent rate plus one minute at depth to resolve the problem and initiate an ascent.

1.5 x 2.2 x 11 = 36.3 cuft of gas or (36.3 / Tank Factor 2.5 x 100 = 1,452 PSI or to make it easier on the SPG 1450 or 1500 Psi to be conservitive.

• Our plan states that if we share gas from the deepest point of the dive, we require at least 1500 psi in our AL80 to reach the surface while safely transferring from one cylinder.
So, @lexvil, at what point during the dive will we need to call it and head to the surface if all goes according to plan?

You have a bogus ascent rate here leading to excessive min gas and so a pointlessly short planned bottom time. Who wants to do a 23 minute dive? You also make the classic mistake of adding conservativism in multiple places. Use realistic numbers of you’ll be getting out with 150 bar thinking why did I bother.
 
You have a bogus ascent rate here leading to excessive min gas and so a pointlessly short planned bottom time. Who wants to do a 23 minute dive? You also make the classic mistake of adding conservativism in multiple places. Use realistic numbers of you’ll be getting out with 150 bar thinking why did I bother.

Fair enough, how would you plan this recreational dive as a new diver with enough minimum gas to get you and your buddy to safety while sharing Gas from a single AL 80?

You plan it, I’ll follow along.
 
It’s all about risk. How much redundancy do you need? How important is it to get good training and have a good buddy? Should you do the dive or not? When is adding more equipment necessary and when is it nonsense?

With a oc tech dive I would plan a dive and if my buddy has a failure we can share backgas/decogas. I do plan for that scenario. But I don’t bring two extra stages (backgas and decogas) for myself to be a independent /self reliant diver if I do have a failure.

I won’t bring a stage/ponybottle for a rec dive when I dive with a buddy to be a independent/self reliant diver. But I think it’s a grey area… I know a lot of people who are doing rec dives with doubles (cold water and poor visibility.)

It would be better if I won’t tell other people what to do. But it wouldn’t make sense if other people are telling (me) that bringing more gas/tanks would make (my) diving safer.

At some point bringing more (gas /)tanks is introducing new problems.

Let's you and I do a virtual dive to 80ft on single AL '80s, shall we? And in that dive, you have a seat failure where you start to lose your gas supply.

Dive Plan:

A critical goal in planning a dive in open water is determining how much gas is necessary for an emergency scenario, as you have listed above.
With that in mind, we want to plan for one diver to suffer an out-of-gas emergency during the deepest part of the dive, which provides sufficient reserves for any range of potential problems within the buddy group.

Let's make a few educated assumptions that leave us all with a bit of room for conservatism.
1. Let's assume that our average surface consumption rate is ~ 20 L/ 0.75 cuft per minute.
2. The assumed ascent speed will be on average 3m/10 ft per minute.
3. The average depth of the ascent is used for all calculations. Divers should attempt to maintain a controlled ascent of between 20 to 30 feet per minute and follow minimum deco (MDL/NDL) profiles. This is based on a slow but foreseeable ascent rate that provides some wiggle room for safety. Also, the 20 L/ 0.75 cuft per minute SCR is approximate based on the outcome of an average diver in most situations.
• MG should never be less than 40 bar/600psi to account for inaccuracy and/or readability in SPG's.
Let's determine our minimum gas for the dive.

Consumption= 0.75 SCR x 2 divers= 1.5 cuft /min

ATA: (80ft / 2 = 40ft); (40 ft / 33 +1 = 2.2 ATA

Time: 11 minutes (10ft/min ascent rate plus one minute at depth to resolve the problem and initiate an ascent.

1.5 x 2.2 x 11 = 36.3 cuft of gas or (36.3 / Tank Factor 2.5 x 100 = 1,452 PSI or to make it easier on the SPG 1450 or 1500 Psi to be conservitive.

• Our plan states that if we share gas from the deepest point of the dive, we require at least 1500 psi in our AL80 to reach the surface while safely transferring from one cylinder.
So, @lexvil, at what point during the dive will we need to call it and head to the surface if all goes according to plan?

If the dive is at 80 ft max depth and you reserve 1 minute to solve problems it will take 9 minutes to get to the surface (8+1). I think your calculation is for 30 meter / 100 ft.

But I don’t like the cat calculation. I prefer the old style calculation.

For rec diving I use a minimum gas of 1100 liter between 18 and 30 meter and 550 liter between 10 and 18 meter and 40 bar between 10 meter and surface.
 
Use of pony is a cultural matter. How much risk is considered socially acceptable? How many of you drive with an extra canister or petrol in your trunks? Shouldn’t we all wear helmets when driving a car? Why don’t we do it when we have considerably higher probability of serious injury? My car came with a spare tire, never used it. I have been lagging around extra weight for years. Should I insist for a spare tire for my next car?
One function of SB is to make things socially acceptable as there is a community. But irrational is still irrational even it is socially acceptable.
 
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