Is a minimum deco style profile possible while DMing in a resort location?

[Snowbear]

If their computers tell them to stop at 15 feet for 5 minutes, they are going to stop there whether or not the DM wants to do minimum deco or not. The Suuntos are particularly fussy about when and where to stop.

Why did they violate 'NDL' profiles in the first place? It was either a case of DM incompetance for leading a dive that made this happen or diver incompetance for letting it happen.

If the diver is following the computer and not the DM, then you've answered the question the OP presented as well as validated the answers I have given... In other words, it doesn't matter in the least if the DM is diving a guage or a computer and it doesn't matter in the least what the DM's profile is

 

[JessH]

Thanks for all of the great responses!

Diver0001 - Resort diving, often involves many repetative dives in a day and non square profiles. I have found that you will run out of bottom time with NAUI tables long before you would with either a computer or a minimum deco model. The minimum deco model seems much better for repetative dives since it gives you credit for offgassing more underwater than rec tables which assume a close to worst case deco situation.(remember that this is all still "NDL" diving)

One drawback to using a minimum deco method while DMing seems to be that you may have to routinely violate it in order to help other divers. I know that you can counter this with padding, etc, but It seems that you may end up in a very murky situation very quickly.

It seems to me now that doing a deep stop and a slower minimum deco style ascent would not be a problem, but that keeping track of nitrogen loading using rules such as those taught by GUE or minimum deco tables such as the dir-diver ones could become one. I guess it may be necessary to find a suitable comptuer to run as backup. Thoughts?
Are there any computers that work well with deep stops and minimum deco style profiles?

Tollie-Do you rely on a computer when you DM?

Kim-I honestly doubt anyone would realize that my bottom timer is not a computer. I have heard of a need for a computer to log so that if a diver is injured there will be a copy of the profile of the dive. I have actually been thinking about getting one of those tiny little dive logger things(name escapes me at the moment) since they seem to be even better at it than most computers. While most shops would probably assume that their DMs would use a computer I don't think any agencies actually require it (please correct me if I am wrong).

Personally I think that this question wouldd actually get better answers if posed in some of the resort location forums - like Thailand, Cozumel etc etc depending on where the OP wants to work. Then the answers would be coming from people who actually work there and know what's expected. That would possibly be more helpful.

That is a good suggestion. The main reason I posted it here was that I figured if I posted it anywhere else most of the responses would most likely just tell me to use a computer and the whole thing would probably turn into an argument over DIR. I guess I chose to place it in the place where I was most likely to get the answer I wanted

 

[Kim]

I believe you.

Now it's your turn to believe me - it's amazing how slow an even incompetant diver can ascend when they are following their trusted leader

My Vyper starts the countdown at 19' and stops counting at 10'.... that's pretty close to your 1 meter

But as I said before - a DM doing a minute at 20' (4m), a minute at 15' (3m) and a minute at 10' (2m) is often not going to be noticed by the diver doing her or his 15' (3m) 'safety stop' while bouncing erratically between the surface and 20' (4m)

That's fine for the shallow stops - what about the deeper stops? (in blue water..with probable currents)
SOP in the Andaman is to get to your safety quickly, but without going too fast, (to limit how far you get pushed away by current) then shoot your SS and hang there for your stop. Lot's of people then take as long as they like to do the last 5 meters. Meanwhile the boat has seen your SS and is ready for you when you surface. Coming up from a 24 meter reef through blue water slowly can really push you a long way away before you shoot your bag.

Still - whatever. This isn't about whats best it's about what's allowed.

Many resort places WILL make their DMs use a computer. How happy he/she keeps his/her customers/company will dictate how long they stay employed.

 

[TheRedHead]

Why did they violate 'NDL' profiles in the first place? It was either a case of DM incompetance for leading a dive that made this happen or diver incompetance for letting it happen.

People don't necessarily go into deco - but it is not uncommon to incur a few minutes, particularly diving past 100 feet - but they certainly ride the NDLs to within a few minutes and many more conservative brands of computers will give them a significant "safety stop" if not a ceiling. It really depends on the group. With divers who have hundreds if not thousands of dives, they expect the DM to be a guide and to let them dive their own profiles. If you read the Undercurrent chapbook, the ops who let divers dive their own profiles are the most popular.

BTW, on the last "recreational" dive I did with a DM, he had 14 minutes of deco on his Nitek.

 

[amascuba]

That's fine for the shallow stops - what about the deeper stops? (in blue water..with probable currents)
SOP in the Andaman is to get to your safety quickly, but without going too fast, (to limit how far you get pushed away by current) then shoot your SS and hang there for your stop. Lot's of people then take as long as they like to do the last 5 meters. Meanwhile the boat has seen your SS and is ready for you when you surface. Coming up from a 24 meter reef through blue water slowly can really push you a long way away before you shoot your bag.

Still - whatever. This isn't about whats best it's about what's allowed.

Many resort places WILL make their DMs use a computer. How happy he/she keeps his/her customers/company will dictate how long they stay employed.

Most boat captains are competent enough to follow their divers during drift dives so why would that be a problem if you are doing a drifting min deco profile? If it were me I would probably shoot my SMB as soon as I hit my first stop just so that it would be easier on the boat captain to see me.

Just because you have to use a computer doesn't mean that you have to follow rely on it's data. In fact if you are following min deco profiles then it shouldn't even get close to NDL times. I used my uwatec aladin tec in computer mode in Turks & Caicos for a week of diving (23 dives over 5 days) but ignored the nitrogen loading and used the min deco tables. I did what snowbear mentioned of doing a 10 ft/min ascent and slowing that down even more once I got to 20 ft and did a 5 min ascent from 20 feet to the surface. My computer never went into deco mode and by the time that I was time to dive again a couple hours later my computer showed almost no nitrogen loading. By the end of the week my computer was only showing a 9 hour no fly time.

 

[JessH]

So it sounds like the aladin tec was properly crediting you for your stops, it has been my impression that many computers will not do this. Of course I have done very little diving with a computer so don't really know.

~Jess

 

[jeckyll]

....
But as I said before - a DM doing a minute at 20' (4m), a minute at 15' (3m) and a minute at 10' (2m) is often not going to be noticed by the diver doing her or his 15' (3m) 'safety stop' while bouncing erratically between the surface and 20' (4m)

Not to put to fine a point on it, but 20' ~6m, 15' ~5m, 10' ~3m is what I'm sure you wanted to write, right?

 

[Tollie]

Hi Jess,

No computer but a trusty bottom timer. Not because of DIR but because I really dont need it.

The tours I run follow well known patterns and profiles. You can take different paths from a common starting point depending on conditions or the experience level of the group. Most tours are within 60 - 70 feet max depth, and are really multilevel profiles with plenty of time at the end of the dive at 35 feet.

The deeper wall dives are also well known. Say... down to 90 - 100 feet for 8 to 10 min, then gradually ascend up the wall to the lip of the reef at 50 feet... return to the boat on the top of the reef at 50 to 40 feet.

The surface interval will typically last for between 45 min to an hour. We keep all dives to an hour max. Most divers that I see would run out of air well before they hit a ndl.

I bet that the vast majority of tours in resort settings are of this nature. Unless the DM makes a mistake... like not leaving the bottom of a 100 foot dive on time the profiles are very safe. Heck you cant have guests regularly coming up with DCS.

I would think that DM led tours simply must be safe... as far as the profile is concerned. Where guests may get into trouble is when they deviate significantly from where the DM goes... or fail to leave the bottom when the DM does.

I think the really important contribution that a DIR sensitive dive leader can make is much broader than the profile.

Oh and remember that "F" word (fun). Tours are suposed to be fun.

 

[JessH]

Tollie- What you are saying makes perfect sense, my only real concern is with repetative diving. I have seen some DMs take multiple groups of divers out on the same day and get a lot of dives in in one day. While the divers in each group go no where near NDLs that DM may begin to push the limits.

~Jess

 

[Snowbear]

Not to put to fine a point on it, but 20' ~6m, 15' ~5m, 10' ~3m is what I'm sure you wanted to write, right?

Oooops.... yep it is.... lemme go fix that :blush: