Is a buddy in a cave considered to be liability ?

[Crush]

I am really surprised at the idea that anyone would configure their equipment in such a fashion as to preclude sharing gas.

Observation of a newb:

Disclaimer: I have done the NACD Cavern course only. I am not a cave diver.

I agree with TSandM in this: I too am surprised at the idea that anyone would configure their equipment in such a fashion as to preclude sharing gas. I am now in the habit of configuring my dives in such a fashion as to preclude diving with people who will require me to share gas (at least in an overhead environment) or otherwise get me killed.

In taking the Cavern course and diving in an overhead environment, I have come to appreciate that an "adequate" OW buddy can very easily get you very dead in an overhead environment - I observed this firsthand. It is one thing to imagine poor buddy choices in an overhead environment. It is another to realize in real-time "holy sh!+ dude - that was fu$k!ng stupid and you didn't even notice."

My challenge to OW divers - take a cavern course (or more) with your OW buddy. Then you will have an appreciation of whether or not you can trust their judgment.

 

[laurin]

I am now in the habit of configuring my dives in such a fashion as to preclude diving with people who will require me to share gas (at least in an overhead environment) or otherwise get me killed.

How are you planning to do that other than going solo or not entering overhead? Even with a perfect diver and perfect buddy both share an equal (small, but still...) chance of having to share gas at some point. You can't "configure" that fact away, you can just reduce the risk. Anyway, sharing gas does not equate to getting somebody killed, it's just an eventuality that you need to be prepared to deal with efficiently to dive safely in an overhead. And gas redundance isn't really the main advantage of having a buddy, as has been said many times over. It's the extra eyes, brains and hands that make a big difference.

Funnily, I doubt if any of the divers actually doing solo exploration in such a cave where a buddy would be a true liability would actually be making blanket statements about buddies being a liability, in an LDS, to open water divers ffs.

Such a big part of the training pipeline up to full cave level concentrates on working as a team that anybody with a full cave ticket coming up with the idea that a buddy is a liability (in other than extreme circumstances) must have really been having a bad time with team skills... I tend to automatically make the assumption that a diver who claims to feel safer diving alone doesn't have very good team diving skills. I might be wrong but it's erring on the safe side.

//LN

 

[ucfdiver]

I tend to automatically make the assumption that a diver who claims to feel safer diving alone doesn't have very good team diving skills. I might be wrong but it's erring on the safe side.

//LN

Agreed, it's an early warning sign. I've noticed when I dive with divers who dive solo frequently that their buddy skills greatly suffer. If you don't practice them, they go away.

 

[tasdiver]

I look at it this way:

Could a buddy be a liability? Yes. If they have the wrong mindset, insufficient training, poor skills, etc.

But that's not the type of buddy I'm going to find myself in a cave with, because if they're an unknown buddy you can bet your ass that I'm not going into a situation with them til I'm comfortable with their knowledge, skill and mindset. Maybe that means I won't dive with them at all, maybe it means I'll only do an "easy" dive until I've assessed their skills (and them mine).

Yeah, well it was quite a :shocked2: when I did find myself in this situation.

 

[LiteHedded]

an instructor once told me he wont go near a cave entrance without spools etc. even when doing a class in a basin, because what if someone had an issue in the cave and he wasn't able to render assistance. how bad would you feel?

not being able to share gas is kind of the same deal IMO. it may not be your buddy that needs it

 

[LiteHedded]

Agreed, it's an early warning sign. I've noticed when I dive with divers who dive solo frequently that their buddy skills greatly suffer. If you don't practice them, they go away.

sounds like you've been picking some quality buddies lately LOL

 

[BabyDuck]

ok, terri, cough up the story...

 

[Sas]

Agreed, it's an early warning sign. I've noticed when I dive with divers who dive solo frequently that their buddy skills greatly suffer. If you don't practice them, they go away.

I've actually found the opposite. The people I know who solo dive regularly are much more stringent in doing checks and things, and also seem to be more situationally aware when I am diving with them. Actually my cave buddy prefers solo diving (though we buddy dive in the caves) and he's tied in equal place for best buddy I have ever had. Maybe I've been lucky... but these days I rarely have bad buddies.

I love solo diving myself, much more so than buddy diving in nearly all situations but I don't do it because I feel it is safer (given I have good buddies I would say my solo diving is more risky) but because I like being alone in the water. I wouldn't set up my gear in a way that made air sharing difficult even when diving alone because I've gained buddies underwater before... (in OW).

 

[Crush]

How are you planning to do that other than going solo or not entering overhead?

By only diving with buddies that I am willing to trust my life to. My buddy OW standards are much lower than my buddy cavern standards.

Anyway, sharing gas does not equate to getting somebody killed

We are in perfect agreement.

I tend to automatically make the assumption that a diver who claims to feel safer diving alone doesn't have very good team diving skills.

I have not proposed solo diving as an alternative to buddy diving.

I do not believe that there is any correlation between a preference for solo diving and poor buddy skills. The best divers that I know enjoy the occasional solo dive. Your conjecture is baseless.

 

[TSandM]

I suspect someone who feels safer alone has had some bad luck with buddies. I have dived with certified cave divers who swam with their hands and who didn't respond to a light signal until it was flashed right in their mask. I know someone who was certified Apprentice without being able to shut a valve down without going seriously out of trim. I've swum over any number of contrary arrows without marking them (it's my favorite mistake).

But I also know a whole bunch of people who are careful, methodical, superbly skilled, very aware, and are without question in my mind major safety assets when I am cave diving. I am lucky, maybe.