Is 100 dives enough for an instructor?

[sumo]

100 dives is irrelevant.

What is relevant is whether a person has the experience of a variety of extreme condidtions and experience. (This is also something that is not comparable between person to person - bc it is subjective - what one person finds difficult may be second nature to another...)

All I know - is that after losing several dear and aqauintence friends to the sea - experience is also NOT everything. Some of the BEST divers with the most experience are taken sometimes. This is life.

I am a DM with around 200-300 dives. I feel qualified enough to go on to be an Instructor, but I have decided to dive for myself - noone else. Money will be made elsewhere.

Firstly - diving never secures a fantastic income (past living accom, food and socialising) And, sod it! I want to enjoy myself - not have to look after other people.

After losing my bf to the sea (feb 2002) - I can only begin to imagine the guilt I would feel about not being able to save someones life - we all have to remember sometimes we are not God, and its not us who is in control....

Overall, respect the sea for what it is....

Sumo

 

[JohnDiver]

Too many credit card instructors now..... It seems if you pay you pass regardless of your abilities.... Does anyone know anyone who actually has failed a dive class after they have paid.. Very few if any.:bonk:

 

[wazza]

my deepest condolence sumo
i am really sorry for what happened to your bf

and i know exactly what u mean by loosing him ,
as i loose every year 2 or 3 of my friends in diving
and they are not kids diving they are tek instructors

and its true that the sea is bigger that any of us even if we have 1000000 dives but not any one is able to see that shame

lu

 

[TCDiver1]

JohnDiver once bubbled...
.... Does anyone know anyone who actually has failed a dive class after they have paid..

Yes i do. For me, six individuals who really wanted it, worked hard for it, and still could not master required skills enough so i felt comfortable giving them a c-card. I remember every one of those people and will admit it's very hard to tell them no. Add on to that a dozen or so more that got frustrated with one skill or another (usually having to do with water against their nose) and quit without really trying to work through the problem.

That's about a 5% failure rate for the people who really worked at it and a total failure rated of about 20%. I wonder how many people failed their driving test the first time or ever. I wonder everytime someone nearly kills me or mine on the road due to lack of skill or safe attitude.

Sumo, i'm very sorry for the lose you've experienced also. And i agree, water is very unforgiving. Especially for those lacking a safety oriented, general attitude when on the water.

Nice post IMO!

 

[Groundhog246]

Walter once bubbled...
We do not know the accident rate and probably never will. I did not try to turn the topic toward accident rates. Sorry if you are pissed off, but the "accident rates" are still not valid. Accident rates, even if they did exist, are not the best indicator of an instructor's competence.

Actually some rates have been established. A project was started in BC which while voluntary has been giving some "real" numbers. A reporting system was set up with dive shops, charters, etc. with compressors were reporting on numbers of air fills. The compliance rate among shops was quite high. Since in general, one fill = one dive (yes I know some will do 2 dives on a tank, some will dive doubles, deco tank, etc, but the basic premise is sound). I don't have the article with numbers to hand, but they had fairly solid figures for number of air fills, number of deaths and number of DCI injuries requiring recompression therapy, etc. As I recall the injury rate was lower than estimated. I think DAN had info on and from the study in a copy of Alert Diver, a quick search of their site didn't turn up any info. Will see if I can find in a back issue.
However, I think more injuries are caused by carelessness, forgetfulness, lack of attention and testosterone than bad instructors. You can encourage attention to detail. Good buoyancy skills. Good finning techniques. ETC. But you cannot make someone do it. I think the best hope is for all of us to continually display good skills. Some won't care that they can't hang with apparent effortlessness at a deco stop, but in my experience most will see such skills dispalyed and aspire towards them. If you're on a highway and the majority are 20 over the speed limit you'll probably be 20 over also. If the majority is at the speed limit, people coming on at the ramps will in most cases ease into the flow, with only a few racing past. We also need to be willing to help out new divers. On the majority of group outings I've been on, most newer divers that arrived without a buddy (including me in my early dives) were paired with a more experienced diver who would demonstrate and encourage (during and post-dive) good technique. There were always that group who would never dive with a newbie and complained loudly about them stirring up the bottom. Maybe 5 OW certification dives aren't enough? Maybe more pool time is needed?

 

[Groundhog246]

Called the Abacus Project, the study counted recreational air fills as a measure of diving activity in B.C. between October 1999 and November 2000.

The project was started as a result of a 1997 inquest into a triple scuba fatality in West Vancouver. The coroner's jury recommended that UCBC review and monitor diving practices in B.C. and set up a mechanism for collecting statistical information on dives.

According to the report, there were three fatalities in 146,291 fills, or 2.05 deaths per 100,000 dives, in the study period. As well, there were 14 incidences of decompression illness, which includes decompression sickness [commonly referred to as the bends] and lung over-expansion injuries [commonly referred to as arterial gas embolism or air embolism], in the 146,291 dives, or 9.57 per 100,000 dives.

Details at Abacus Project

The figures show less than 1 reported accident for every 10,000 dives. I'd like to see number for the number of reported car accidents with injuries (let's leave out the bent fenders) per 10,000 car trips. I'd bet driving is a lot riskier.

 

[montereydivemas]

My open water training was doen by a very competent instructor. He was thourough totally at ease in the water and above all made it fun. There was a guy training in the class room sessions. Not to say he was new to diving or incompetent but he was not overly comfortable or a very good speaker. over all my OW training was great although I was glad when it was over.

I decided to try the other shops in town for my continued training to see who was the best. My next stop for advanced training led me to the WORST experience I have had. This instructor was hilarious. On the beach before we even got wet he was a joke. we were doing compass training an the beach at del monte, monterey and there are old railroad tracks there, the metal made the compass needle turn and he goes with it walking a full 90 degree turn. same guy wanted to cancel a dive because the other trainee couldnt get his full face mask to work, it was his first time using it. I told him the other guy could go home if he wanted too but I had paid my money came prepared and was getting trained. NOT a great experience


After that I went with a guy that I knew was ex-military and so not my type of trainer but that was willing to cut me a deal in prices. Did rescue and DM with him and things went well, competent training without an excess of enjoyment. I will probably do my instructor training in Cancun when its time, I am a little burnt on cold water diving.

what are your experiences? with good bad instructors? anyone? Walter ?

 

[Popeye]

what are your experiences? with good bad instructors? anyone? Walter ? [/B]

I've been an assistant instructor for a while (near 5 years), and I've never met an incompetant instructor.

Athough some may say that injury statistics are no way to rate general intructor competence, it's the only way we have.

The number of deaths every year is static, and one would presume the number of divers increases every year (PADI alone cites 200,000 annual certs in the US)

Any way you want to play with the statistics, the problem is infantismal.

I have hundreds of dives off S. Fla and Keys boats, and I've never once seen an OOA or a case of the DCI.

DEMA says there are over 8 million certified divers in the US alone, and that 2.9 million are active (I can't currently find those numbers on their website any more).

DAN says (the report is downloadable if you're a member) there are less than 100 deaths, average, a year, a number unchanged for over 3 decades, and that in 2001 (IIRC) there were 4500 cases of -reported- DCI. Keep in ming that when you can get unlimited chamber rides for $40 a year, that number may well be artificially inflated.

While we're on the subject, there is statistically no evidence that reduced Open Water standards are causing an increase in death or injury, either.

DAN shows, interestingly, that just as many divers died in 2001 that had 10 year's experience, as had less than 1. And those two categories account for 70% of the fatalities (IIRC), meaning about 35 divers died last year, somewhere in their first year of diving, for a variety of causes.

There's just no evidence, other than anecdotal, that OW instructors are generally incompetent.

And again, on the original topic, OW training simply isn't that difficult, and thousands of dives and advanced techincal training really don't bear on it too much.

Think about the proficiency level of the OW diver on completion of the basic certification.

It's twenty five dives -after- that point before they begin to figure out what bouyancy control actually means.

You just don't have time to become -experienced- in your basic class.

 

[Butch103]

What constitutes incompetance in an instructor ??.....This is a question to those who feel there are many of these in the dive community. ANd I guess to everyone. Is it an instructor who skips or takes short cuts ?....Perhaps they unleash divers whom have poor diving skills.....And then can these diving skills be taught or are they something that should improve with experience ?..For all the older (?) instructors out there, where you as good an instructor at the beginning as you are now ?....

I suppose I am looking for that initial definition of incompetant.....

 

[Rick Christ]

I disagree, I started to dive in 71, became OWSI in 89 with over 3400 logged dives (no not a typo); I am a Capt. in the lower Keys. The new instructors are so poorly trained it frightens me. It is not the fault of the new Inst., but the responsibly is on the Cert. Agencies. This goes back to the question of 100 dives being enough to become an instructor. WE HAVE ROOKIES TEACHING ROOKIES in this industry, so the Cert Agencies can keep the cash flow coming.=-)