Introducing others to diving

[fjpatrum]

I rather have no students than have a group that cannot afford the activity. Do you work for nothing? Gee, even with that attitude I have a group of 8 starting tomorrow night. Last weekend it was a group of 5..All of them paid full price. Even the one I failed paid full price,because he could not pass the written exam (due to not having done his knowledge reviews, and could not comfortably clear water out of his mask and had absolutely no buoyancy control ,he though that just being there in class was enough.


No beef,and as you state you are not an instructor. If anything happens to that child you can say goodbye to your home,car,dog. You are not an insured professional doing this. In as little as 4' of water,or even less, a person can get an AGE. Do this 8 yr old parents know the possible dangers involved.


People have died in less than 4' of water as I said. I see a severe lack of judgement here in allowing anyone breath off an alt air source that is not certified.


True back in the old days people taught themselves to do this.Many also taught themselves how to fly an airplane before there were flight instructors. Many have died doing both flying and diving by teaching themselves.

We've hashed out our beliefs on the cost of scuba before. I will leave the existing thread discussions as they are and not bother repeating myself since you and I both hold our positions firmly. That said, there is a difference "snorkeling from my octo" and diving to 4 feet. The child never left the surface of the water. His parents do know the possibilities and were in the pool with us at the time.

You seeing a "severe lack of judgement" really is just your opinion, as I stated. The fact that you glossed over the history of this sport being "self taught" speaks to your position as a professional SCUBA instructor and your thoughts on the matter quite clearly. It's dangerous, yes, but really not that difficult in the end. That's my only point.

 

[TMHeimer]

A lot of discussion on this hot potato subject. I would assume there are many different situations when it comes to one diver showing another stuff. As a (almost non-experienced) DM I would not do it myself for several reasons-- PADI says no (I'm insured, but not to teach uncertified divers anything). I don't want the responsibility for this person should something happen even though I am quite capable of showing him the skills, basics, etc. (I also am not insured for this). Having said that, an interesting point was made about people graduating from some OW classes with woeful dive skills. This would be a result of poor instructor, poor general set up of program or both. I don't think this is very common, but surely occurs. Now, the difference between diving and many other activities/pursuits is that one can die or be badly injured diving. Having said THAT, a lot probably does have to do with how good an "instructor" the diver is who is showing his buddy. If someone is a violinist in a major symphony, chances are a violin student will learn a lot more from him than from the school orchestra teacher, though the symphony player is not certified by a school board to teach. As I said, Scuba is a different story due to the risk. I personally would not do it (unless I ever pursued Instructor, which I have no plans to), but I'm sure there are some non-instructors that would do it a lot safer than some others. It is what it is and people will either do it or not.

 

[ermaclob]

i can tell u right now, my friend is not going to learn much from his OW class other then the dive tables, removing equipment and drop weight assents. Its mostly going to be all practice and review.

I just had one of these,"my friend taught me" people last week. I failed him. He was one of the worse students I ever had. He has to redo the entire course again. could not clear water out of mask without going for the surface,would not follow directions,insisted that his friend told him how to do skill and after I explain how to perform it still does it wrong,his "friend " installed bad habits it teaching this guy. No awareness of where he is in the water , absolutely no buoyancy control.This guy brags he has been diving,blah blah,and I failed him for all I mentioned and he failed the "quick review" miserably, as he did elearning,something I have never seen a student fail. I am surprised that his friend did not kill him in doing him a "favor" taking him in the water. Same class group there was a 20 something couple and a 12 year old boy.They passed just fine.High 90's on the final exam.

well clearly this student of yours had a mental disorder. Ether that or your just over exagerating you story. You make it sound like if no one in exsistence can learn anything about scuba unless its fed to them by an instructor. Rubish. 3 of the student that took the OW class with me had been diving for almost 3 years before they finally got around to taking the class. They felt it was almost a waist of time at that point.

 

[XS-NRG]

Wow, looks like my comment sparked a good debate lol. I think make the DSD part of the course and definitely have it credit towards the cert if they continue, otherwise they are only in for the cost of the intro and nothing more. I also think that everyone going into the course should read the entire book before the first class (after the DSD) and then progress from there (look at my signature line for why I believe that). I know that one day I'll get into the instructor level and having seen the way a few classes have gone and have been taught I certainly know how I'd structure mine to produce quality divers. I would also stress on day one that $350 does not guarantee a card at the end and that each pool session is training from start to finish, no playing around or free time (that's what the DSD is for).

 

[TMHeimer]

Wow, looks like my comment sparked a good debate lol. I think make the DSD part of the course and definitely have it credit towards the cert if they continue, otherwise they are only in for the cost of the intro and nothing more. I also think that everyone going into the course should read the entire book before the first class (after the DSD) and then progress from there (look at my signature line for why I believe that). I know that one day I'll get into the instructor level and having seen the way a few classes have gone and have been taught I certainly know how I'd structure mine to produce quality divers. I would also stress on day one that $350 does not guarantee a card at the end and that each pool session is training from start to finish, no playing around or free time (that's what the DSD is for).

Yes, I agree with everything you say. Absolutely a good idea to include the DSD at the beginning for all as long as those continuing get the fee applied toward the OW fee (as opposed to what I figured to be an add on to the OW cost). Reading the book ahead--YES YES YES! Or read it more than once. In both the OW and Nitrox courses I took there were those who read the manual for the first time as the class was going on--amazing. Who does this? Also, the $350 not guarenteeing you a cert. in the end. It seems from what I read on SB the idea in some places is to get you certified no matter what.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I taught people to dive before I was a dive instructor and before I had any assets...

However, all this talk of liability... If you are just a dumbaaas basic, open water scuba diver with a few lessons and some training over a few weekends... is anyone really sure that we don't know any better? I mean there is no law against it, right?

I would think that an instructor who cuts corners, and knows better and has someone get hurt would have a lot more trouble.

I made people freedive to 30 feet (with a full wetsuit and lead) and handle themselves in the water and clear a mask and recover a weightbelt and spend 10 or 15 hours of time freediving before I would think about teaching them to dive,,,and i always kept it less than 30 feet. I remeber one guy was really good, but he did end up with a bunch of exploded blood vessels in his eyeballs from a bad mask squeeze... I think I forgot a minor detail on that one.

But seriously, it is really a bad idea if you have anything to lose to teach someone scuba yourself. The classes are so short now, if you want your buddy to learn to dive.. Just wait a few weeks...You will still be teaching them to dive... just do it after they are certified.

 

[XS-NRG]

some places is to get you certified no matter what.

I would only agree with this if the instructor took it upon him/herself to go the extra mile to spend more quality one on one time with the student and hammer out any issues. Keeping in mind this may incur additional costs. If they still can't get it figured out then I'm afraid I'm not associating my name with a potential hazard (both to themselves, the buddy they may need to rescue and the fragile marine ecosystem that is rapidly declining). No skill = no card regardless of how much time and money has been spent.

 

[TMHeimer]

I would only agree with this if the instructor took it upon him/herself to go the extra mile to spend more quality one on one time with the student and hammer out any issues. Keeping in mind this may incur additional costs. If they still can't get it figured out then I'm afraid I'm not associating my name with a potential hazard (both to themselves, the buddy they may need to rescue and the fragile marine ecosystem that is rapidly declining). No skill = no card regardless of how much time and money has been spent.

Agree again.

 

[oly5050user]

well clearly this student of yours had a mental disorder. Ether that or your just over exagerating you story. You make it sound like if no one in exsistence can learn anything about scuba unless its fed to them by an instructor. Rubish. 3 of the student that took the OW class with me had been diving for almost 3 years before they finally got around to taking the class. They felt it was almost a waist of time at that point.

He just may have a mental disorder. Well, I have another class with 8 students in it this weekend and so far he is now able to clear mask and can control his buoyancy a bit better. Still a major pain. One of these who thinks he knows it all and when asked to perform a skill he screws it up. He really does not listen to or watch demonstrations. I think he may have a learning disability.
Teaching someone to dive is not that difficult. But, if a person is not an INSURED instructor then the consequences of what can possibly happen is difficult. Even a retired instructor should not teach someone to dive because he/she is out of teaching status and is uninsured.

 

[DAN.ger]

It's interesting reading these comments; it seems that diving professionals (paid to teach people) are appalled at the thought of anyone so much as putting their face underwater without paid supervision, while those who dive solely for fun are more open to a non-traditional route to diving.

I must say, $60 for sitting and throwing a frizbee underwater instead of above water (and being told to pop your ears and not to hold your breath) sounds rather steep.


Other comments have led me to wonder, when you get certified are you paying for the class, or the certification? To me, I feel like a good instructor shouldn't have a problem with giving some students some extra help, rather than failing them and making them take the whole course again.