Introducing others to diving

[Steve50]

I, like you talk and think Scuba alot, ive had a friends tell me he wanted to try scuba out but where not willing to pay for a discover scuba class or something the sort.

Anyone not willing to pay the small price for a discover scuba experience, is truly barking up the wrong activity...

 

[fjpatrum]

Anyone not willing to pay the small price for a discover scuba experience, is truly barking up the wrong activity...

Why? There's a big difference between paying for the experience as a one time deal and paying for a full certification. I know there are people who keep saying DSD are offered for free or nominal cost but around here I haven't seen that to be the case. $50-$60 per person for folks to see "if they like breathing under water" gets expensive if there's more than one person in your family. No, it's not nearly as expensive as a full cert but to have the option of "try before you buy" for free is very nice, if available. If you've just spent $250 on DSD for a family of 5 that's basically the cost of one of you to do the full OW course less OW dives and gear. That can make a big difference for some people. Not everyone has the interest of diving all the time or buying their own gear so for vacation family divers, that $250 could also be a full dive day of gear rental.

 

[TMHeimer]

Why should it be free?? This is what is wrong with many "part time" instructors who think they should be like a missionary preaching scuba and believe everyone should dive. It is the same "part time" that complain that they do not make any $$ and their insurance is soo expensive. I for one have no issues with what the insurance costs as I make enough out of teaching to pay for it, I look at it as a business expense.Same as rent/electricity... It is a business and people need to be paid for their time and effort. Charge a fee, say $50.-$60. for the 90-120 minute experience and allow some of that fee to be credited towards the tuition of a ow course if participant chose to go that route. Doing it this way will weed out the ones who are not serious about it.Why waste time and energy on people that are just "looking"?

I pretty much agree with everything you say. As a career Band Teacher I can't count the number of times a good "weeding out" would have been great. And I think we have in the past agreed completely about the low pay/general situation dive Instructors and DMs find themselves in. The only reason I said it would be OK if it were free is because I did not need it, nor did 4 of the other 5 people in the OW class I took. Perhaps a better way to weed out the real "time-wasters" would be to check out what someone's backround is regarding water activities/swimming, etc. But no doubt many shops would not want to suggest to a possible paying customer that they familiarize themselves a bit with aquatics and hold off on the scuba. So, it's welcome to the world of our education system--a large group of people (many more than 6-11 scuba students) with students all learning at different levels and a tone of wasted time (as you know). The only way to have no time at all wasted is one on one instruction--and it costs more, as it should. In hind sight, it is obvious to me that the fees charged for OW classes are ridiculously low (which has been discussed to death on SB), thus Instructors make way below what they should. Knowing what I do now, I would have paid maybe 2 or 3 times or more what I did for OW. Having said that, I still wouldn't want to pay a penny extra for a (required) DSD class that I didn't need.

 

[oly5050user]

Why? There's a big difference between paying for the experience as a one time deal and paying for a full certification. I know there are people who keep saying DSD are offered for free or nominal cost but around here I haven't seen that to be the case. $50-$60 per person for folks to see "if they like breathing under water" gets expensive if there's more than one person in your family. No, it's not nearly as expensive as a full cert but to have the option of "try before you buy" for free is very nice, if available. If you've just spent $250 on DSD for a family of 5 that's basically the cost of one of you to do the full OW course less OW dives and gear. That can make a big difference for some people. Not everyone has the interest of diving all the time or buying their own gear so for vacation family divers, that $250 could also be a full dive day of gear rental.

$50.-$60. really is a nominal fee to pay for DSD..if it is a family of 5 then more than likely at a minimum 2 of them are working if not more. If it truly is too much then the family should just look into snorkeling. Also if a family of 5 are going on a island vacation that $250. it would be a very small percentage of their trip with airfare/hotel/rental car costs..It is probably just the same as the cost of a nice dinner out with drinks for 1 night! If that cost stops them from doing a DSD,which can most likely get credited towards a open water course, then diving as a family activity is not for them. I know myself as an instructor who has been in the business for 40 + years that I rather have 2 students that actually dive and get their own gear and be active divers than a family of 5 that questions every nickle spent and never dive again and never own their own gear.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I don't do anything for free. My time is valuable, the pool costs money to maintain, the gear is expensive, and it is not without risk. I charge $35 per person for goups and 50 for a private. I have to drive to the pool and gas is not free. Not everyone who wants to dive should.

Complaining about spending a few dollars (less than they would pay for admission to many amusement parks) is a good indicator that they are not likely to buy their own gear, commit to lessons, and stick with the activity. I did not become an instructor for free. It cost thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours all told from OW on.

A golf pro at a range near me charges $75 an hour for a beginner lesson. To hit a ball with a crooked stick. And by the time you are done he has likely tried to talk you into 2-3 days a week for 3 months at the same rate. Again to hit a ball with a crooked stick, chase it down, and hit it again. All to put it in a hole in the ground. And the same people that will do this and spend a grand on a driver balk at paying 35-50 bucks to do something that 99% of their friends have never done.

And that guy on the golf course does not have to worry about getting seriously hurt or dying in a very nasty way if something goes wrong. Unless what goes wrong is that the pro finds out the new golfer has been screwing the pro;s wife while he's giving lessons.

I hope you knew that all it would have taken for your friend to die in 4 feet of water, and he understood this clearly, is for him to take a big breath off a tank and stand up without exhaling. Then you'd have a friend or relative with bloody froth coming out of their nose and mouth and as you watch their eyes roll back in their head and the life leave them you can say "sorry dude, wasn't supposed to be such a big deal" then you can explain to their wife, mother, or father why a non pro did this to their loved one.

It's not like you are the people you talk about who are in their 70's and have decades of actual experience behind them that may have been gained at the expense of people they knew doing this. Ask them how many of their buddies got bent or died. You are a new diver that does not have decades of experience. The lack of judgment is emphasized by the only 20 feet deep remark. People have died in much less.

 

[fjpatrum]

$50.-$60. really is a nominal fee to pay for DSD..if it is a family of 5 then more than likely at a minimum 2 of them are working if not more. If it truly is too much then the family should just look into snorkeling. Also if a family of 5 are going on a island vacation that $250. it would be a very small percentage of their trip with airfare/hotel/rental car costs..It is probably just the same as the cost of a nice dinner out with drinks for 1 night! If that cost stops them from doing a DSD,which can most likely get credited towards a open water course, then diving as a family activity is not for them. I know myself as an instructor who has been in the business for 40 + years that I rather have 2 students that actually dive and get their own gear and be active divers than a family of 5 that questions every nickle spent and never dive again and never own their own gear.

Just because they only dive vacations once a year, and don't own their own gear doesn't mean they'll never dive again. Far from it, in fact. As far as family of 5 meaning dual income, I know at least 15 families in my area (arguably one of the highest cost of living areas in the country) that are single income with 5 or 6 family members who do these types of vacations every year. My point was that $250 can make a difference whether you, as a professional instructor get 5 students or no students... not the difference of 5 or 2. So it's $2500 revenue for you or $0 revenue, not $2500 versus $1000. I suspect either option is just as likely though...

As such I don't see a big beef with offering a dip in the pool "free of charge" or something like that. I, however, am not an instructor and I'm not trying to make a living doing this. If my friends ask me to bring my gear to their pool and take a dip and let them try it, I'm likely to do so... in fact I've already gotten one request from an 8 year old who got to snorkel on my octo last summer that he get to do it again this summer when they get their pool ready.

I don't do anything for free. My time is valuable, the pool costs money to maintain, the gear is expensive, and it is not without risk. I charge $35 per person for goups and 50 for a private. I have to drive to the pool and gas is not free. Not everyone who wants to dive should.

Complaining about spending a few dollars (less than they would pay for admission to many amusement parks) is a good indicator that they are not likely to buy their own gear, commit to lessons, and stick with the activity. I did not become an instructor for free. It cost thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours all told from OW on.

A golf pro at a range near me charges $75 an hour for a beginner lesson. To hit a ball with a crooked stick. And by the time you are done he has likely tried to talk you into 2-3 days a week for 3 months at the same rate. Again to hit a ball with a crooked stick, chase it down, and hit it again. All to put it in a hole in the ground. And the same people that will do this and spend a grand on a driver balk at paying 35-50 bucks to do something that 99% of their friends have never done.

And that guy on the golf course does not have to worry about getting seriously hurt or dying in a very nasty way if something goes wrong. Unless what goes wrong is that the pro finds out the new golfer has been screwing the pro;s wife while he's giving lessons.

I hope you knew that all it would have taken for your friend to die in 4 feet of water, and he understood this clearly, is for him to take a big breath off a tank and stand up without exhaling. Then you'd have a friend or relative with bloody froth coming out of their nose and mouth and as you watch their eyes roll back in their head and the life leave them you can say "sorry dude, wasn't supposed to be such a big deal" then you can explain to their wife, mother, or father why a non pro did this to their loved one.

It's not like you are the people you talk about who are in their 70's and have decades of actual experience behind them that may have been gained at the expense of people they knew doing this. Ask them how many of their buddies got bent or died. You are a new diver that does not have decades of experience. The lack of judgment is emphasized by the only 20 feet deep remark. People have died in much less.

Jim, I normally agree with most of what you post, but I must respectfully disagree with a bunch of what you've said here.

First, people dive for different reasons than they golf. I have never met anyone, however who does it because they want to "do something 99% of their friends have never done". We, as a general rule, are social creatures and diving is more or less a social activity for most of us.

Second, "a few dollars" isn't just a few dollars and trying to save that money is absolutely zero indication as to whether or not someone will pursue the sport further. If it was, I would have never even finished OW because I looked for the cheapest class I could find and had no intention of ever diving in cold water. Clearly that turned out not to be the case and I ended up buying not only all my gear but enough to outfit two other people, including tanks, and I continue to expand my diving experience. Had I had a chance to do a DSD type experience for free I may have even gotten into this sport earlier than I did. Then how much more money would I have spent on this hobby instead of others?

Yes, people have died in less than 20 feet of water. Let's not make diving more complicated than it is, though...and certainly let's not claim that taking someone under for a quick swim-beside breathing from an octo is especially difficult. If it was, DSD wouldn't be available. The number of dives one has or doesn't have isn't particularly relevant to someone's lack of judgement. The poster emphasized the long "read the book" discussion and "the basics" explanation which is essentially what any DSD is. Yes people have died doing this, but a whole lot more have taught themselves or been taught by friends how to do this quite successfully. That's simply not going to change.

 

[oly5050user]

Just because they only dive vacations once a year, and don't own their own gear doesn't mean they'll never dive again. Far from it, in fact. As far as family of 5 meaning dual income, I know at least 15 families in my area (arguably one of the highest cost of living areas in the country) that are single income with 5 or 6 family members who do these types of vacations every year. My point was that $250 can make a difference whether you, as a professional instructor get 5 students or no students... not the difference of 5 or 2.

I rather have no students than have a group that cannot afford the activity. Do you work for nothing? Gee, even with that attitude I have a group of 8 starting tomorrow night. Last weekend it was a group of 5..All of them paid full price. Even the one I failed paid full price,because he could not pass the written exam (due to not having done his knowledge reviews, and could not comfortably clear water out of his mask and had absolutely no buoyancy control ,he though that just being there in class was enough.

As such I don't see a big beef with offering a dip in the pool "free of charge" or something like that. I, however, am not an instructor and I'm not trying to make a living doing this. If my friends ask me to bring my gear to their pool and take a dip and let them try it, I'm likely to do so... in fact I've already gotten one request from an 8 year old who got to snorkel on my octo last summer that he get to do it again this summer when they get their pool ready.

No beef,and as you state you are not an instructor. If anything happens to that child you can say goodbye to your home,car,dog. You are not an insured professional doing this. In as little as 4' of water,or even less, a person can get an AGE. Do this 8 yr old parents know the possible dangers involved.

Yes, people have died in less than 20 feet of water. Let's not make diving more complicated than it is, though...and certainly let's not claim that taking someone under for a quick swim-beside breathing from an octo is especially difficult. If it was, DSD wouldn't be available. The number of dives one has or doesn't have isn't particularly relevant to someone's lack of judgement.

People have died in less than 4' of water as I said. I see a severe lack of judgement here in allowing anyone breath off an alt air source that is not certified.

The poster emphasized the long "read the book" discussion and "the basics" explanation which is essentially what any DSD is. Yes people have died doing this, but a whole lot more have taught themselves or been taught by friends how to do this quite successfully. That's simply not going to change.

True back in the old days people taught themselves to do this.Many also taught themselves how to fly an airplane before there were flight instructors. Many have died doing both flying and diving by teaching themselves.

 

[ermaclob]

I hope you knew that all it would have taken for your friend to die in 4 feet of water, and he understood this clearly, is for him to take a big breath off a tank and stand up without exhaling. Then you'd have a friend or relative with bloody froth coming out of their nose and mouth and as you watch their eyes roll back in their head and the life leave them you can say "sorry dude, wasn't supposed to be such a big deal" then you can explain to their wife, mother, or father why a non pro did this to their loved one.

It's not like you are the people you talk about who are in their 70's and have decades of actual experience behind them that may have been gained at the expense of people they knew doing this. Ask them how many of their buddies got bent or died. You are a new diver that does not have decades of experience. The lack of judgment is emphasized by the only 20 feet deep remark. People have died in much less.

Yes i did know that he could have died in 4 feet of water, i also told him as well. understand that i spend a good part of the week before hand explaining the dangers that scuba diving as i know them to my friend. I told him from the very beginning of him asking me to take him that "HE COULD DIE." but he still insisted after all my explaining. So that was that. those guys in there's 70's dont have any real stories of dive accidents, other then minor mishaps. from what they tell me the've always did scuba on what seemed to be the OW level never really going deeper then 100 ft. and always did a very generic plan that got them up safe always.

I am nowhere as experienced as you, and clearly have no teaching experience however i strive to get better and better as i go along. i know that some of the things i did where illadvised from the start, but again it was all done with the understanding that it was dangerous and that if he did not follow direction properly he was going to probably get hurt.

i did it with the intention to help my friend out, both for him to have fun and be safe.

if would have said no, he would most likely still pursue the idea of trying it out before not wanting to do a discover scuba class. god forbid he would find someone else that just happens to have scuba gear and just lends it to him for a weekend.

so which would you prefer? the direction i went or this alternate one?

Furthermore, you being an instructor your self must have come across MANY certified divers that raise a neon red flag on dive boats in and out of the water when it comes to there lack rudimentary knowledge on how do things properly. its scary sometimes, people that cant control buoyancy, clear mask, cant swim properly with fins, dont do any sort of equipment check and let octo and gauges dangle feet below them. there was a guy on this trip one time that went half the dive swimming face down vertical because he did know know how to properly weight himself.

are you saying that some of these guys are better of because they took a class they clearly didnt get much out of. compare to some one how gets tought by another diver that at least want them to be properly prepared.

would you say the Instructor that gave some of these people there C card had any interest what so ever in there safety when they past them?? those guys probably just get a cluster of students, say "hay this is scuba gear this does this this and this, into the dive well you go." run through skill "yea so what you didn't get it, you probably wont need it."

<--- compared to this, i was feeding my friend ever bit of knowledge i had accumulated on scuba over the last 2 years. literally like if his life depended on it, often saying "that could kill you." we did skills almost the whole dive till he had them down.

i can tell u right now, my friend is not going to learn much from his OW class other then the dive tables, removing equipment and drop weight assents. Its mostly going to be all practice and review.

 

[oly5050user]

i can tell u right now, my friend is not going to learn much from his OW class other then the dive tables, removing equipment and drop weight assents. Its mostly going to be all practice and review.

I just had one of these,"my friend taught me" people last week. I failed him. He was one of the worse students I ever had. He has to redo the entire course again. could not clear water out of mask without going for the surface,would not follow directions,insisted that his friend told him how to do skill and after I explain how to perform it still does it wrong,his "friend " installed bad habits it teaching this guy. No awareness of where he is in the water , absolutely no buoyancy control.This guy brags he has been diving,blah blah,and I failed him for all I mentioned and he failed the "quick review" miserably, as he did elearning,something I have never seen a student fail. I am surprised that his friend did not kill him in doing him a "favor" taking him in the water. Same class group there was a 20 something couple and a 12 year old boy.They passed just fine.High 90's on the final exam.

 

[nimoh]

Yes i did know that he could have died in 4 feet of water, i also told him as well. understand that i spend a good part of the week before hand explaining the dangers that scuba diving as i know them to my friend. I told him from the very beginning of him asking me to take him that "HE COULD DIE." but he still insisted after all my explaining. So that was that. those guys in there's 70's dont have any real stories of dive accidents, other then minor mishaps. from what they tell me the've always did scuba on what seemed to be the OW level never really going deeper then 100 ft. and always did a very generic plan that got them up safe always.

I am nowhere as experienced as you, and clearly have no teaching experience however i strive to get better and better as i go along. i know that some of the things i did where illadvised from the start, but again it was all done with the understanding that it was dangerous and that if he did not follow direction properly he was going to probably get hurt.

i did it with the intention to help my friend out, both for him to have fun and be safe.

if would have said no, he would most likely still pursue the idea of trying it out before not wanting to do a discover scuba class. god forbid he would find someone else that just happens to have scuba gear and just lends it to him for a weekend.

so which would you prefer? the direction i went or this alternate one?

Furthermore, you being an instructor your self must have come across MANY certified divers that raise a neon red flag on dive boats in and out of the water when it comes to there lack rudimentary knowledge on how do things properly. its scary sometimes, people that cant control buoyancy, clear mask, cant swim properly with fins, dont do any sort of equipment check and let octo and gauges dangle feet below them. there was a guy on this trip one time that went half the dive swimming face down vertical because he did know know how to properly weight himself.

are you saying that some of these guys are better of because they took a class they clearly didnt get much out of. compare to some one how gets tought by another diver that at least want them to be properly prepared.

would you say the Instructor that gave some of these people there C card had any interest what so ever in there safety when they past them?? those guys probably just get a cluster of students, say "hay this is scuba gear this does this this and this, into the dive well you go." run through skill "yea so what you didn't get it, you probably wont need it."

<--- compared to this, i was feeding my friend ever bit of knowledge i had accumulated on scuba over the last 2 years. literally like if his life depended on it, often saying "that could kill you." we did skills almost the whole dive till he had them down.

I can tell u right now, my friend is not going to learn much from his OW class other then the dive tables, removing equipment and drop weight assents. Its mostly going to be all practice and review.

I have no doubt that you have a lot of experience, based on number of dives in your profile, I think we are probably at about the same level. However, knowing how to dive is not the same as being able to teach someone to dive. I don't show people how to dive even though I am a divemaster (have not completed the requirement to be a DSD leader). The reason I don't, is because I am not aware of the things that I don't know.

Anyone I know that wants to get certified, I refer them to some of the instructors I know, and then volunteer to be a divemaster in the class (whether it be DSD or OW).

I do agree with you that the current certification system (all agencies) is not perfect, and sometimes divers are passed when they probably shouldn't be. Maybe they did everything correctly in class, but then forgot everything in the 3 months before their next dive after certification, can't blame the instructor for that. I don't however, claim to know as much as the instructors and training agencies.