Intro to Cave versus Full Cave - access to sites

[SuPrBuGmAn]

An intro diver is allowed 1/3rd of a single tank. Its only 1/6ths if they are diving doubles. Will some Intro divers dive beyond 1/6ths? Probably. Will some Full Cavers dive beyond 1/3rd? Probably.

When has an Intro Diver died as a result of diving doubles, and not breaking any rules? Its not against agency rules to dive doubles as an Intro Diver, just Ginnie's.

 

[karstdvr]

When has an Intro Diver died as a result of diving doubles, and not breaking any rules? Its not against agency rules to dive doubles as an Intro Diver, just Ginnie's.

I think saying I followed the rules and didn't die is fallacy of composition. There is a false sense of security of following the rules will insure survival. Even Sheck admitted the rules of 1/3rds was flawed,and would not insure survival if there was incident at maximum penetration.
My main point was that there appears to be a trend for less accidents if you are an intro diver in a single than doubles. Does having double tanks become a facilitator of exceeding ones limits at the intro level? I'm not offering explanation,just stating that there is some information that deserves to be analyzed before condemning "silly rules".

 

[DA Aquamaster]

If you read the cave,a lot of Ginnie can be done without being hammered by flow,even on the gold line. When people say they've worn the skin off their fingers,then they are unnecessarily pulling without really studying the cave. Often times the straightest line may be the most direct route,but the circuituitous route will result in less gas expenditure,and more bottom time. Once people stop being concerned with penetration distance,all of a sudden new vistas appear.

No argument there at all. I agree being strategic in how you move through the cave using the current, eddies and backwash in various areas is the key to efficiency.

But my point was that the first time I jumped to the Hill 400 line it was almost like suddenly jumping into Peacock and I had no idea the flow would be that low off the main line and in what is still a major passage way.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I think saying I followed the rules and didn't die is fallacy of composition. There is a false sense of security of following the rules will insure survival. Even Sheck admitted the rules of 1/3rds was flawed,and would not insure survival if there was incident at maximum penetration.
My main point was that there appears to be a trend for less accidents if you are an intro diver in a single than doubles. Does having double tanks become a facilitator of exceeding ones limits at the intro level? I'm not offering explanation,just stating that there is some information that deserves to be analyzed before condemning "silly rules".

I'm under no assumption that following the rules assumes survival. However, the rules we have are a baseline of our dive plan and greatly improve our safety.

I think there is less accidents of Intro divers on single tanks, because there are so few of them diving single tanks. I understand single tank Intro divers were pretty common in the past, but overall cave diver numbers were also much much lower. I wonder if the percentages of Intro diver accidents are equal(tank configuration aside), compared to when the single tank Intro divers were more prevelant.

 

[karstdvr]

I'm under no assumption that following the rules assumes survival. However, the rules we have are a baseline of our dive plan and greatly improve our safety.

I think there is less accidents of Intro divers on single tanks, because there are so few of them diving single tanks. I understand single tank Intro divers were pretty common in the past, but overall cave diver numbers were also much much lower. I wonder if the percentages of Intro diver accidents are equal(tank configuration aside), compared to when the single tank Intro divers were more prevelant.

Unfortunately there was no data kept so it is hard to verify. You used to see more single tank cave divers at the intro level. I don't know if I could say cave diver numbers are lower,because there was a boom in the mid90s. What you have is more people getting that c-card,and never returning to diving anymore. I do know there are far less single tank intro divers at sites than there used to be- a lot of reasons for that,but that is another story.

 

[Cave Bum]

Its not against agency rules to dive doubles as an Intro Diver, just Ginnie's.

I believe your mistaken. My temp cards from back when I was in training say 'Intro limited to single tanks'. This is CDS from back in 2003. If I remember correctly, you had to have a waiver from your instructor for doubles. This was the specific reason that CDS created the 'Basic' level, which is 'Intro in Doubles'.

I don't have a problem with Ginnie having rules about that if it's in line with the standards, but why then do they let open water divers enter the overhead environment (The Ballroom) without training? This is CLEARLY a violation of standards. Ginnie Springs IS NOT A CERTIFICATION AGENCY and does not have the authority to give divers permission to go beyond the limits of their training! If they are going to nit-pick one rule then they should be as anal about all the rules.

Or would that cut into their profits too much?

 

[ucfdiver]

NACD Training

Intro to Cave Diving ​

The Introduction to Cave Diving course is taught in a minimum of two days and includes and a minimum of four single tank cave dives. This course is designed to help hone those skills previously learned in cavern. New skills and procedures are taught which are needed for limited single tank cave penetration.

Purpose: To develop a cave diving proficiency within limitations of a single tank. It is for the diver who does not wish the burden of double tanks or is not interested in cave exploration and long decompression dives. It is recreational cave diving course. The course develops and establishes minimum skills, knowledge, dive planning abilities, problem solving procedures and the basic abilities necessary to safely cave dive using single cylinders.

Prerequisites: NACD cavern diver of equivalent and a minimum of 25 logged non-training dives.

It's real simple...want to dive doubles? Take a class designed for a diver who wishes to dive doubles!

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Intro and Basic are the same thing Alot of agencies don't even distinguish between diving doubles or not.

 

[kidsdream]

With your instructor's approval you can get a Intro Cert with NACD. Note: the doubles element expires after 1 year.

Ginnie recognizes this level of diving (1/6ths etc) as the full limitations are on the laminated card.

NACD Training


It's real simple...want to dive doubles? Take a class designed for a diver who wishes to dive doubles!

Here is a more complete description of the NACD Intro Class http://www.scubadogdiving.com/NACD Intro Course.htm

 

[handben]

Thank you all for the responses and information. In thinking about the original question, it may be somewhat of a moot point though. It doesn't look as though one can bipass the Intro course anyway. It appears to be a prerequisite to the Full Cave class. If so, I will have to start with Intro anyway. And I suppose if I were to dive to the limits of my experience, then going to the next level would be the logical progression. Thanks again. Ben