Intro to Cave versus Full Cave - access to sites

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I can think of a recent cave diving death that had to do with a closed isolator, and one or two posted on TDS (non cave). After hearing about the recovery earlier this year, I remember thinking "Well, this basically cements Ginnie's stance on doubles". Everyone claims doubles are so easy-- I have no arguments towards that, they're very simple-- yet people still die from making stupid mistakes in them.

As opposed to other issues related with cave diving deaths, its one of the least common happenings. Non caving deaths shouldn't be counted, as Ginnie allows you dive doubles even with an OW cert at Ginnie's headspring(and then into the cavern with only an OW cert). Is Ginnie's headspring somehow safer to dive in doubles than the Devil's system? I think not. Ginnie isn't thinking too far into any of this.

 

[ucfdiver]

As opposed to other issues related with cave diving deaths, its one of the least common happenings. Non caving deaths shouldn't be counted, as Ginnie allows you dive doubles even with an OW cert at Ginnie's headspring(and then into the cavern with only an OW cert). Is Ginnie's headspring somehow safer to dive in doubles than the Devil's system? I think not. Ginnie isn't thinking too far into any of this.

I'm not sure what other issues are more common? We seem to have a pretty big mix when it comes to causes of death here recently....medical conditions I think takes the #1 spot the past year or two, not a surprise when you see what kind of shape most cave divers are in!

Ginnie allows OW divers to dive in the ballroom, so I guess all rules go out the window there. And, let's face it, Ginnie doesn't bother you at all unless you make a scene.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Thats my point, they don't think things through too much. They make rules for silly reasons(its the only place with a doubles restriction against Intro divers) and they are totally lax on other, far more detrimental rules(OW divers being in the caverns).

 

[karstdvr]

One of the first things I noted after Full Cave is that Ginnie is fairly low flow once you get off the gold line -.

If you read the cave,a lot of Ginnie can be done without being hammered by flow,even on the gold line. When people say they've worn the skin off their fingers,then they are unnecessarily pulling without really studying the cave. Often times the straightest line may be the most direct route,but the circuituitous route will result in less gas expenditure,and more bottom time. Once people stop being concerned with penetration distance,all of a sudden new vistas appear.

 

[karstdvr]

Thats my point, they don't think things through too much. They make rules for silly reasons(its the only place with a doubles restriction against Intro divers) and they are totally lax on other, far more detrimental rules(OW divers being in the caverns).

You'll find a lot of the rules have a reason,and there is a historical context too-that is how all cave diving rules have been derived. Many of the rules at Ginnie have this historical context ie the DPV rule. I am not opposed to limiting to a single tank intro dive,because there hasn't been a history of any fatalities of an intro diver in a single tank. I know this is an unpopular comment,but there a quite a few examples of fatalities on an intro diver with doubles.

I too don't care for the safe cavern dives for OW divers like Ginnie and Vortex,we have a history of fatalities at each. But one thing we can't ever know is did it ever save a life because of the determined OW diver that had to go into overhead,but chose there versus ie Little River because that site was available

 

[battles2a5]

If you read the cave,a lot of Ginnie can be done without being hammered by flow,even on the gold line. When people say they've worn the skin off their fingers,then they are unnecessarily pulling without really studying the cave. Often times the straightest line may be the most direct route,but the circuituitous route will result in less gas expenditure,and more bottom time. Once people stop being concerned with penetration distance,all of a sudden new vistas appear.

Exactly. For instance, If you know how to get through the gallery, there is very low flow and you can catch eddy's that actually push you in. My first dives in Ginnie I could barely make it past the lips on 1/6's. Now I burn about 100psi getting there (and I still have plenty to learn about the system).

As some of the others have stated, the big advantage of full cave is the additional training, techniques, and preparedness that comes along with it. Nobody says you have to dive 1/3's to max penetration as a full cave diver, but the skills you learn could be the determining factor in a self-rescue situation. Murphy can strike just as easily 100ft into the cave as he can at 2000'. The extra training will never hurt.

 

[ucfdiver]

I am not opposed to limiting to a single tank intro dive,because there hasn't been a history of any fatalities of an intro diver in a single tank. I know this is an unpopular comment,but there a quite a few examples of fatalities on an intro diver with doubles.

Kelly, which incidents are you referring to? Are they all examples of intro divers diving beyond their training limits, or incidents where an intro diver was diving mainline to 1/6ths? I'd think that most intro divers accidents these days would be in double cylinders, since it's so rare to see anyone with a single tank in a cave these days.

 

[karstdvr]

Kelly, which incidents are you referring to? Are they all examples of intro divers diving beyond their training limits, or incidents where an intro diver was diving mainline to 1/6ths? I'd think that most intro divers accidents these days would be in double cylinders, since it's so rare to see anyone with a single tank in a cave these days.

There was once a time (for quite awhile) where people did the intro class in a single,and used the single tank for their dives. This group of people has to the best of my knowledge never had a fatality. Could one hypothesize that perhaps intro divers diving doubles are more prone to exceeding their limits versus their single tank brethern? I've heard the arguments that an intro diver in doubles has more air to resolve their problems,but the evidence doesn't support this.

 

[ucfdiver]

There was once a time (for quite awhile) where people did the intro class in a single,and used the single tank for their dives. This group of people has to the best of my knowledge never had a fatality. Could one hypothesize that perhaps intro divers diving doubles are more prone to exceeding their limits versus their single tank brethern? I've heard the arguments that an intro diver in doubles has more air to resolve their problems,but the evidence doesn't support this.

Admittedly, anyone who thinks the majority of intro divers on single tanks never break 1/6ths is a wishful thinker...just wasn't aware of any deaths relating to it other than the scooter incident at LR.

Also, it seems from the statistics that the rate of trained deaths for any training level is up, which could skew that observation.

 

[karstdvr]

Also, it seems from the statistics that the rate of trained deaths for any training level is up, which could skew that observation.

You are right. Unfortunately or fortunately we are a victim of our successes. Cave diving was thought of as an "extreme" sport because of the safety issues. Now with training offered by every alphabet soup agency,the sport has become more mainstream,and recreationalized (and commercialized). The statisitics may be skewed,but generally accidents fall into medical issues or exceeding experience/training levels.