Intentionally out of air (at 15m)

[vjanelle]

That was... What the hell?

As far as someone saying "that's a tech diver procedure", it's more of an "OOA panicked diver procedure". If someone's OOA and panics, if they don't bolt to the surface holding their breath, they'll grab your primary most likely. If this happens to you, grab the hose (not the purge valve), and get them to hold your wrist, then buddy breathe(2 breaths, swapping, while making sure to bubble air out slowly and not holding your breath).

 

[Zerbini]

Wow, I'm not impressed at all. Sounds like an accident waiting to happen. Training purposes aside,(which you weren't on) no thanks. Especially with someone I don't know. This is like going diving for sharks with a raw beef wet suit.

Did I read correcty that you are a NAVY Seal wanna be?

What your training at this point should have been telling you was to get as far away from this guy as possible. 15m, about 45' more or less, direct accent to the surface after spending how long at what depths? Didn't your instructor tell you that even if you stay with in the limits of the tables you could still take a hit? or with a dive computer.

I got to say, if it were me, I would have been looking for a diffrent boat.

You were actual okay with this?

The part about being a NAVY Seal wanna be is joke. I intended to say that I'm really into exercises and stressfull situations.

As I said at the time I was really OK with the idea, but nowadays I think it was a near miss, as stated in my first post. Yes it was too deep for an emergency accent, that's one of the main topics of the discussion.

 

[Zerbini]

In my training I have learned the following:
01) If you're OOA signal to your buddy, he is trained to protect his reg (beacause the first instinct of a panicked diver is to take the one in his mouth) and give his reserve for you.

02) The buddy breath is a last resort option, used if the reserve is damaged.



I have only heard of the "go for his regulator" approach here, in tech dive and if the buddy is using that reserve conected to the BC hose.

As for me if someone tries to take mine I would definately protect it and give him the reserve. If it was not working then I would buddy breath with him although I always test my reserve (breath a little underwater and test the purge valve).

 

[RonFrank]

I count it as a near miss for the same reason the OP does. To far from his buddy, not enough experience, and a bit too deep. Things could have easily gone south.

Interesting drill however. For the poster that indicated this was not a training exercise, it obviously was, even if ill conceived with such a newbie. Since they planned on him running out of air, and sharing, and monitored his consumption closely, obviously an exercise.

 

[Jasonmh]

In my training I have learned the following:
01) If you're OOA signal to your buddy, he is trained to protect his reg (beacause the first instinct of a panicked diver is to take the one in his mouth) and give his reserve for you.

02) The buddy breath is a last resort option, used if the reserve is damaged.



I have only heard of the "go for his regulator" approach here, in tech dive and if the buddy is using that reserve conected to the BC hose.

As for me if someone tries to take mine I would definately protect it and give him the reserve. If it was not working then I would buddy breath with him although I always test my reserve (breath a little underwater and test the purge valve).

I added the bold.

It is good of you to post your story. Was the goal here to see what it would be like to go OOA for real?

I am worried about your wording above, even more than your initial story. He did not actually GIVE you the regulator, but let you try to figure out the clip on your own. I am not sure why you would have to PROTECT your reg. If someone came to you OOA after a 7+ meter swim, and had trouble getting to your backup, I hope that you would give them your primary and YOU go to the backup. You are ok, you are not out of air, you know how your own clip works. I hope you will think about this, and be there to aid your fellow diver by providing them with the quickest working reg, and not worry about protecting YOUR reg from them.

 

[Zerbini]

Jasonmh,
The goal was to see how it felt to be OOA.

Now you've said it, about the wording, I'm actually thinking about it.
The instructions I've written above are the NAUI protocol for sharing air (the words are mine but the idea is the same). It makes sense to me because since the reserve has a longer hose it would be easier and safer to give it to the diver in need. The DM didn't gave me the reserve, that's another thing that could be done differently. I think he should have been in stand by with his reserve on hands. But anyway, I followed my training and went for his reserve, at that moment I thought it was easier to break the clip than to pull the main reg from his mouth (if he got scared and bit forcefully enought) and I imagined if I tryied to take his reg he would follow instructions and protect his own and give me the reserve.

The idea of protecting your reg is the old concept of not becoming the second victim, but you pointed out that the one giving the air is OK, he hasn't panicked and is not in desperate need of air, it would be actually unnecessary to protect the main hose...
Interesting.
Nevertheless, I'll debate it with my buddies in my shop and I'l bring our conclusions to this post.

 

[TSandM]

It's not a bad exercise, when done with someone with more experience, and with the buddy with the gas supply STANDING BY. Allowing that kind of separation from an 8 dive diver who is about to run out of gas is inexcusable, in my book.

You learned a valuable lesson about gear configurations. In the event that someone is out of gas, getting something to breathe should be no more difficult than rolling out of bed. Either the donated reg should be ridiculously simple to find and get loose, or you follow the strategy I use, and simply donate the regulator you are breathing (which is easy to find, easy to deploy, and you know is working) and YOU fall back on the secondary regulator, since you are unstressed and haven't been holding your breath, and have time to figure out where it is and get it in your mouth. (And, of course, if it's on a necklace beneath your chin, it requires no effort to find.)

 

[D_B]

That was... What the hell?

As far as someone saying "that's a tech diver procedure", it's more of an "OOA panicked diver procedure". If someone's OOA and panics, if they don't bolt to the surface holding their breath, they'll grab your primary most likely. If this happens to you, grab the hose (not the purge valve), and get them to hold your wrist, then buddy breathe(2 breaths, swapping, while making sure to bubble air out slowly and not holding your breath).

If they have your primary, why dont you just use your back up reg ?

I donate my primary ... because of the gear configuration I have that makes it necessary (have longer 42" primary hose routed under my arm to make that easier) but it also makes the most sense .. you take a breath, and go to your back up reg while handing off the ready and working reg to the OOA diver .. he might not have the time to find, unstow, purge a reg .. but you should have time to do so.

For that and ther reasons I'll eventually be converting to a conventional back up reg/primary on a longer hose

OP .. thinking back to my 8th dive and having that as an episode .. not one I would have been happy with afterwards

 

[Starlet]

I have to be honest - I'm surprised by this exercise. If the DM wanted you to feel what it was like to have an OOA situation he could have just turned your air off while staying next to you and completed the drill (ie - gives you his reg etc) that just seems like a safer option to me rather than swimming in front of you while you run OOA and have to swim to him.

In saying this though, it was a good experience but I don't think I would go through it. Good on you for not freaking out!

Cheers
Starlet

 

[DandyDon]

Your training should have told you to take his primary.

Not mine. There are two schools of thot on that, with no agreement in sight.

I know that's a tech dive procedure, but I've never heard it on recreational.

It depends. I think most Recreational agencies teach donating the alternate reg.

paddler3d
When I surfaced I filled my BC with cylinder air (it had magically appeared!)

That's the air I would have ascended on. I screwed up badly once this year, hit a hard drag like you - away from anyone else, noticed my spg, and started my slow ascent from around 15 meters. In my call, I ascended slowly enough that I ran out of lung air I was slowly releasing but had kept the reg in my mouth to avoid sucking water - and got a new breath, which I paused to take, then started ascending and exhaling again. For me, I wouldn't re-do it any other way. Eh, when I got to the surface, there was more that appeared - to inflate my BC and actually blow my inline whistle.

It's not really a tech dive procedure....it's a "get whatever gas I can breathe off of" procedure. If you're struggling to grab their octo, grab what's in their mouth (as an added bonus, you can be sure that the reg is working since your buddy was just breathing off it).

That alternate reg, or octo as some call it, is the dive buddy's responsibility to check before the dive IMO. I hope Zerbini realizes this now. I made my home buds holder for him, and I test it.

Breathing off the buddies primary is also good preventative medicine.
Some people may neglect their back ups or use faulty clips (if at all) but if they know that in an OOA you are going for the primary with a kung fu death grip they might take the time to make sure the octo is "workable".

see previous

For a good low tech reg clip in a pinch, use surgical tubing to make a loop that holds the mouthpiece of the reg firmly (but releases when pulled stiffly) and slip it through itself onto your d ring.

That's what ours are made from. We've tried several manufactured items but like the tubing.

In my training I have learned the following:
01) If you're OOA signal to your buddy, he is trained to protect his reg (beacause the first instinct of a panicked diver is to take the one in his mouth) and give his reserve for you.

02) The buddy breath is a last resort option, used if the reserve is damaged.



I have only heard of the "go for his regulator" approach here, in tech dive and if the buddy is using that reserve conected to the BC hose.

As for me if someone tries to take mine I would definately protect it and give him the reserve. If it was not working then I would buddy breath with him although I always test my reserve (breath a little underwater and test the purge valve).

My buds and I discuss this clearly before dives.

In my particular case, I dive with dentures and a Manta mouthpiece and I pass the word to others on the boat that if they need air - just grab my alternate or my pony reg that I keep valve open on deeper dives without asking and I will understand - but they'll have a hard time getting the one out of my mouth. Actually, they wouldn't know how to insert it, but if they still grabbed the one in my mouth, I'd let them, they'd hold it with their hand enough to suck, and I'd grab one of my others.

I have to be honest - I'm surprised by this exercise. If the DM wanted you to feel what it was like to have an OOA situation he could have just turned your air off while staying next to you and completed the drill (ie - gives you his reg etc) that just seems like a safer option to me rather than swimming in front of you while you run OOA and have to swim to him.

That is similar and a safer drill, but it's not actually the same. For a CESA like I described above, the tank that was OOA at 15 meters still served me on ascent and surface. I did have one hand on a weight pouch when I surfaced, just in case I fumbled an oral inflation - but it wasn't needed.