Instructors who yell for no reason

[TMHeimer]

I feel I did a huge disservice to my students whom I taught on their knees when they first started diving. And those who continued onto AOW with me struggled with their buoyancy. I honestly feel like I violated standards, as I followed how things were being done at the shop where I first taught. Moving onto another shop, I started teaching midwater immediately and the results in buoyancy control between the students I taught on the knees and midwater is staggering. I've had to do a lot of remedial work with one AOW student whom I taught on the knees. It took him quite a while to meet the performance requirements of the PPB adventure dive (almost 20 attempts), but that's my fault. I gave him a poor foundation, and I own that. Fortunately it is now fixed, but I had to work really hard at it. I wouldn't have if he had been taught properly in his OW class.

I see what you're saying and don't disagree--especially with your experience vs. the little I had. I would ask how was the general ability of your AOW student in water--comfortability, swimming, time spent in water before OW course? After OW being taught on the bottom, it wasn't many dives later I did the PPB course and had no trouble doing the tricks (through the hoops, spinning, etc.). I certainly agree that buoyancy control after being taught neutrally is much better than if skills are taught on the bottom (I couldn't kneel--cramps, so one foot ahead, one behind). I saw the big difference the last year or so that I assisted. The instructors spent a lot more time on buoyancy, even if some skills were still taught kneeling, some not. This seemed to be the way the shop and PADI was heading.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I see what you're saying and don't disagree--especially with your experience vs. the little I had.

Don't give me so much credit. I'm still fairly inexperienced. The initial learning curve is quite steep, but I still have a long way to go compared to many others who post here.

I would ask how was the general ability of your AOW student in water--comfortability, swimming, time spent in water before OW course? After OW being taught on the bottom, it wasn't many dives later I did the PPB course and had no trouble doing the tricks (through the hoops, spinning, etc.). I certainly agree that buoyancy control after being taught neutrally is much better than if skills are taught on the bottom (I couldn't kneel--cramps, so one foot ahead, one behind). I saw the big difference the last year or so that I assisted. The instructors spent a lot more time on buoyancy, even if some skills were still taught kneeling, some not. This seemed to be the way the shop and PADI was heading.

I teach in the Puget Sound, so year round it is cold, dark, and depending where and when, the currents can be quite strong. So I think this environment was quite a challenge. There was an issue of overall athleticism and fitness. But I still believe that I certified without skills being mastered in hindsight. Scratch that. I know now that skills were not mastered, at least buoyancy ones.

 

[Ankush Mittal]

After all these amazing point of views I can't wait to see what PADI does!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I feel I did a huge disservice to my students whom I taught on their knees when they first started diving. And those who continued onto AOW with me struggled with their buoyancy. I honestly feel like I violated standards, as I followed how things were being done at the shop where I first taught. Moving onto another shop, I started teaching midwater immediately and the results in buoyancy control between the students I taught on the knees and midwater is staggering. I've had to do a lot of remedial work with one AOW student whom I taught on the knees. It took him quite a while to meet the performance requirements of the PPB adventure dive (almost 20 attempts), but that's my fault. I gave him a poor foundation, and I own that. Fortunately it is now fixed, but I had to work really hard at it. I wouldn't have if he had been taught properly in his OW class.

I often had to do remedial work with students who signed up for my AOW classes because of how they were previously taught. Despite the fact that I emphasized during the initial interview that this class would be conducted entirely while neutrally buoyant ... no kneeling on the bottom allowed at all ... I would always get students who would instinctively kneel any time they had to do something simple, like take a compass heading or clear their mask. We'd have to work through how to do those things without kneeling before continuing with the regular curriculum.

One of my funniest experiences along those lines were a pair who understood perfectly that kneeling on the bottom wasn't allowed ... but went through the motions anyway. The final dive of the class was always conducted mid-water ... at a depth of 20 feet. The bottom was well below us ... usually not even visible. The exercises on this dive included navigating a course ... usually a square or triangular course from a buoy out into the depths and eventually making your way back to the buoy. One diver gets the compass, the other gets the depth gauge/bottom timer (usually a dive computer). The point of the exercise is to work together to achieve the objective. Well, these two fellows did just fine ... but every time they had to take a new compass heading they'd face each other and assume the kneeling position ... never mind that they were several feet off the bottom and kneeling mid-water. They were just doing it the way they'd been taught by their OW instructor ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Diving Dubai]

BTW, PADI is currently redesigning the IE, and I was assured that buoyancy instruction would be emphasized.

I do hope so.

My ICD/IE experience was much different. My CD is young and new. She is passionate about neutral buoyancy. All skills were taught to be demonstrated neutrally. My weak skill at one point was reg remove and replace, where I would exhale too much air and end up face planting the pool bottom before completing the skill.

Our pool was only 5' deep, thus too big a breath could put you on the surface.

However we were drilled, my buoyancy before hand was good - but 5' or water is a new level. In teh end we would challenge each other say mask off and kit off, kit on mask on while being neutral and horizontal (eyes closed because or the chlorine in the water)

On teh IE we were all told to perform skills on our knees by the examiner. We were in a deep pool (6m/18'0 so it would be dead simple to be neutral - but no. Actually I found I had to think to do the skills on my knees and I had this vision of my CD pool side screaming "get off yer fecking knees" (in a Scottish accent

To me the examiners should be insisting that its neutral (fin tips at most) because if you can't do it how can you teach it?

My only thought as to why not is that they are trying to minimise the nerves and stress on the candidates (which is self imposed but significant nevertheless)

 

[Bob DBF]

... but every time they had to take a new compass heading they'd face each other and assume the kneeling position ... never mind that they were several feet off the bottom and kneeling mid-water. They were just doing it the way they'd been taught by their OW instructor ...

Since buoyancy obviously was not a problem, may be it was just their safe thinking position. They hadn't yet got rid of dry land position habits.

The OW class I was in did some on the knees training, followed by neutral training. The problem isn't doing some training on the knees, but not continuing the training to show how to dive neutral and use those skills when being neutral.

When originally learning to dive, I learned everything while neutral, but it was not a certified instructor, and we were trying to copy how Cousteau dived. So I guess it's not hard to learn neutral, and that was prior to BC's.

As for yelling, after growing up around my old man, it takes more than yelling to bother me. It was great training for some situations I ran across in the military.



Bob

 

[TMHeimer]

Bob, That makes sense. As I mentioned, though some of the skills in the last few courses I assisted on (2015) were still done on the bottom, more attention and time was given to overall neutrality. These classes were better on their checkout dives than previous ones. Some of the stuff--like mask clearing, reg retrieval, etc. probably can easily be done neutral even after learning them on the bottom. I never gave thought to having to get on the bottom to clear my mask--how hard is that? How hard can it be to breathe from a free flow neutrally if you learned it kneeling? Others, like belt and unit removal/replacement in MY mind would take a little more effort to do neutrally if learned on knees. But as I said, quite a few instructors disagree with me that these things are any harder neutral. I confess I have never tried removing my weight belt neutrally (I use suspenders) nor removing the unit neutrally--can't figure when I'd ever do this for real.

My take on all this is that if the appropriate skills are taught neutrally it simply means the students are spending a lot more time in the pool neutral. Perhaps the fact that they are doing some skills that way may be secondary. Again, others way more experienced than I may disagree.

 

[Neilwood]

Bob, That makes sense. As I mentioned, though some of the skills in the last few courses I assisted on (2015) were still done on the bottom, more attention and time was given to overall neutrality. These classes were better on their checkout dives than previous ones. Some of the stuff--like mask clearing, reg retrieval, etc. probably can easily be done neutral even after learning them on the bottom. I never gave thought to having to get on the bottom to clear my mask--how hard is that? How hard can it be to breathe from a free flow neutrally if you learned it kneeling? Others, like belt and unit removal/replacement in MY mind would take a little more effort to do neutrally if learned on knees. But as I said, quite a few instructors disagree with me that these things are any harder neutral. I confess I have never tried removing my weight belt neutrally (I use suspenders) nor removing the unit neutrally--can't figure when I'd ever do this for real.

My take on all this is that if the appropriate skills are taught neutrally it simply means the students are spending a lot more time in the pool neutral. Perhaps the fact that they are doing some skills that way may be secondary. Again, others way more experienced than I may disagree.

I had occasion to do the weightbelt removal and replace neutrally while on my last trip (was on a dive at about 15m deep at the point). Was using a weightbelt (as is common on a LOB) and had an issue where the belt had slipped round on me which was meaning I was trimming about 30 deg to port. Up until that point on previous dives, I had only ever had to re-tighten the belt at depth but this time I had forgotten to tighten it and it was too loose.Tried to slide it round but it had gotten hooked up with the crotch strap. Ended up having to undo it, work it away from the strap, reset its position and tighten it. Managed to get it done and didn't lose control of my buoyancy or trim (I was about 1m of the reef at the point so breaking trim or losing buoyancy was not a real option).

 

[TMHeimer]

Neilwood, Good point I didn't think of. I got very frustrated early on continually tightening the belt and busting a gut. The DM on my OW course suggested lying on the bottom to do it. I finally went to the suspenders. I guess the shape of my hips just didn't cut it. There is also a harness you can use that goes over the shoulders, which may be a better idea for releasing the belt.

 

[Neilwood]

Neilwood, Good point I didn't think of. I got very frustrated early on continually tightening the belt and busting a gut. The DM on my OW course suggested lying on the bottom to do it. I finally went to the suspenders. I guess the shape of my hips just didn't cut it. There is also a harness you can use that goes over the shoulders, which may be a better idea for releasing the belt.

I should have said that at home, due to the weight needed with a drysuit, I use a harness for my weight - the belt was too much of an issue.