Instructors who yell for no reason

[Akimbo]

If you have to yell to get your point across, you're doing it wrong.

Interesting concept, however I'm not sure that applies universally. Besides, I wouldn't want to be the guy trying to explain that to my Navy dive instructors.

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Levity aside, I concur.

 

[Marktan]

Yelling that simulates urgency is totally fair game. As is being crystal clear about truths that may be difficult to hear. I believe the people who know their stuff are capable of both in a manner that does not come across as abusive.

Totally agree with this. Our rescue class (OP was in it) had a lot of yelling to stimulate urgency as well as to create a realistic sense of task loading. Most intense certification I've done so far in my short 3 years of diving. All of us students ultimately passed but not everyone maintained under the task loading. Reality is that a real rescue scenario would be real serious business with unrelenting task loading. Glad we learned this way and not like some of the other "fluffy" rescue classes I've seen done there. It makes me a better diver.

 

[boulderjohn]

As I tried to imply in post #59, in a public school classroom, you have to have a variety of approaches for students and use the ones that work best with each to be successful. It is a real challenge. In comparison, you have much less of a variety in highly advanced, specialized classes like technical diving. It isn't nearly as difficult, and motivation should rarely be a concern.

 

[JohnnyC]

Look at your wording. You appear to be taking a neutral position, but you use a fairly positive term to describe "tough guy" approach, and extremely pejorative terms for the other. Your statement comes across as "Choose an instructor that matches your style. If you are a real diver who wants to learn and improve, you will go with one. If you are a total worthless wimp with a fragile ego, then choose the other."

By coincidence, my first tech instructor used the terms "coddled" and Handheld" to describe what he would not be doing in the class. What that translated into was "I am not going to explain how to do skills. I am not gong to demonstrate how to do skills. I am just going to tell you how to do them and then yell, mock, and ridicule when you don't do them right."

Interesting assessment. I don't disagree, but again, this entire discussion is very contextual. I would never berate an open water student for making a simple mistake in their OW class. It's entirely counterproductive in any scenario within that context. I absolutely think when you're diving at the level where you are taking a cave diving course (especially more than one within an instructional period), you should be prepared enough and have your foundational skills squared away beforehand, and if you don't, a harsh reminder may be required. Sure, that's not neutral, and in fact I think it is positive in that environment to pull no punches and leave no ego unchecked. You literally cannot afford to take shortcuts, and you're doing yourself a disservice if you accept instruction that will leave you less than prepared for one of the harshest environments in this planet out of concern for your feelings, when you do something that could potentially lead to your own demise. If that means that someone raising their voice (which again, because it's Edd I have a real hard time believing) is the only way to get you to understand that you're doing something that could kill you, whether immediately or through a trip down the accident slope, it's just another tool in the toolbox that MAY be appropriate for some students.

I'll put it another way. What happens when a student consistently screws up a gas switch, and despite every amount of demonstration, debrief, dry drills, remedial training, etc., they continue to screw up a gas switch. At what point do you think it's ok to yell through your regulator when they're about to switch to O2 at 20m? And why is it not appropriate on the boat to pull them aside and say, "in no uncertain terms, doing it incorrectly will kill you. Period. Full stop." To a lot of people they would take that as you're yelling at them. I know to some people it absolutely would, because I've seen exactly that situation happen.

I've said it before and will say it again, this is not a basic scuba discussion talking about first time divers having trouble clearing their mask or retrieving their regulator. The context that this whole discussion is founded upon is an overhead technical diving course were something seemingly innocent like incorrectly marking a jump could have disastrous consequences. An instructors responsibility is to correct those mistakes while they have the ability to supervise you, so that when you're outside of their purview, you don't make the same mistakes. If one is consistently making those mistakes, any and all means to rectify that should be employed. Although perhaps immediate failure of a student without recompense should be more readily wielded in an effort to save having to resort of a more elevated response? I'd rather someone take me to task than say, "well, you fail, thanks for your $1000, but I'd rather save your ego." Cave diving is one of the riskiest sport activities on the planet. If you want to learn to manage risk to the level where you can safely execute these dives, honesty and self-assessment needs to be a huge part of it. If you are unwilling to do that, why shouldn't someone call you out on it? If an instructor has exhausted all other methods to try and correct your mistakes in practice or mindset, if it takes some dressing down to finally make you "get it," that's much preferable than the alternative.

How long do you have to find a lost line? The rest of your life. How do you suggest we express the gravity of that simple truth if a diver is completely disengaged with that simple statement?



I'm sorry your first instructor was so bad that he equated coddling and handholding as refusing to teach you. That's not an instructor. It's a real shame and maybe that instructor needs his own come to jesus meeting. That's most definitely not what either of those words mean and I'm sorry that you were in a situation where those were equated.

I wholeheartedly agree with you about Edd and his teaching style and method based on my own interactions with him. Which is why when the OP outed him on another forum it was such a shock. That being said, if Edd had cause to raise his voice, it was definitely for cause.

As I tried to imply in post #59, in a public school classroom, you have to have a variety of approaches for students and use the ones that work best with each to be successful. It is a real challenge. In comparison, you have much less of a variety in highly advanced, specialized classes like technical diving. It isn't nearly as difficult, and motivation should rarely be a concern.

Except that's the problem. While that may be true is the majority of cases, just take a look at youtube course videos of technical divers that have no business being in a technical diving course in the first place. If anything we need to be better at weeding out those people who shouldn't be there until their foundational skills are up to par. If that were the case, I guarantee your assessment would ring absolutely true.

 

[Landau]

Years ago, in my swimming instructor class, we did an exercise where two outside "experts" taught us a juggling routine. Each "expert" taught half the class. One was all soft spoken positive feedback and praise, the other yelled belittled and pointed out every little thing his group did wrong. At the end of 20 minutes each group performed the routine.

The yeller's group was far better at the routine but no one ever wanted to ever deal with him again!

The point of course was that it is most important that your students want to keep coming back.

 

[boulderjohn]

I would never berate an open water student for making a simple mistake in their OW class. It's entirely counterproductive in any scenario within that context. I absolutely think when you're diving at the level where you are taking a cave diving course (especially more than one within an instructional period), you should be prepared enough and have your foundational skills squared away beforehand, and if you don't, a harsh reminder may be required. Sure, that's not neutral, and in fact I think it is positive in that environment to pull no punches and leave no ego unchecked. You literally cannot afford to take shortcuts,

When one becomes an instructor,one is taught a process to use in instruction. You are taught how to describe a skill before it is done. You are taught how to demonstrate that skill. You are taught how to give positive reinforcement, correct mistakes, and have the student repeat the skill until it is mastered. In your words, you are taught that you should "never berate an open water student for making a simple mistake in their OW class."

Why are you taught this?

Because it works! Research has shown that is the best way to take a students from no skill to mastery.

So why is it different in a technical diving class? Why would you feel the need to do something that is absolutely forbidden in the OW class, knowing that it is forbidden there because it does not work? What are these "shortcuts" you mention?

I teach technical diving. Students have to meet specific standards. A difficult one for those who take the class backmount is the valve shutdown drill. For most, it is the most challenging part of the course. They have to do it right to pass the clas. When they don't do it right, they don't pass the class. We keep working on it until they do it right. They feel like crap every time they struggle, and I try to give pointers to help them get it right.

Please explain how yelling at them will make that better.

 

[SeaHorse81]

I don't understand why some posters seem to be equating rigorous, demanding instruction with personal abuse. They are not the same thing and do not need to co-occur.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Maybe keep your class size down to the number of personalities that you are able to assume.

J/K. You seem to have a sense of humor.

Maybe try this instead: How to Increase Your Emotional Intelligence ― 6 Essentials

Thanks for the link. I'll check that out.

I have sometimes called my friends whom I teach "maggot". But only at the beginning, to start things off with some humor.

Currently I like to co-teach, as I teach through a shop. In the future, when I go independent, I'll have max class sizes of 4, but with an assistant. My focus is simply to explain what they did right and then what is wrong, then have them try again, and repeat it a few times so they develop some muscle memory.

 

[JohnnyC]

@boulderjohn see SeaHorse81's post above. I apologize if I have not articulated my position clearly enough.

The point is, the risks and ramifications of being unskilled are significantly greater in a technical diving course, and to some students, no amount of "working on it" will get them to perform correctly if they do not have the attitude, aptitude, or mindset to accomplish it. Sometimes a reset is needed, a catharsis if you will, and how that is accomplished may not be the same for every student. That may involve every tool in your instructors tool box. Yelling is one of those tools. Never with malice, and never to cause harm, and only to correct something that is unsafe, when other options have been exhausted.

I'll give you an example. "STOP! THINK! WORK THE PROBLEM!!!" Yep, that's yelling. Yep, it's a valid instructional command. How do I know? Because it's saved my life before in a non-diving scenario.

 

[KevinNM]

Please explain how yelling at them will make that better.

What is "yelling"? Franks post about people complaining about his wife yelling at them, when it wasn't yelling at all. I've felt bad about stuff I did in a diving class, but never have been yelled at. Having your very serious failings pointed out doesn't feel good, but it doesn't mean they yelled at you.