Instructors: teaching neutrally buoyant

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

I kind of figured that. I guess I really meant it was always done that way (overweightng, knees) since when things changed over those earlier times. Still, that's a long time ago and a lot of years it was done that way.
I suppose back when there were no BCs or flotation devices you couldn't overweight someone or they would sink and drown, no?
It was really dangerous if done in the sea, not in the pool.
My wife's first dive in the sea, in 1976, she was given the wrong weight belt, carrying 8 kg instead of the 2.5 she was used to. And of course a 10+10 liters steel twinset without BCD and a single reg, no SPG.
She did signal to me she was going down (meaning that she was overweighted, but I did not understand), and I said her "Ok, go!" instead of helping here to staying afloat. So she dropped down quickly to the bottom at 10 m without managing to equalize properly and she got a barotrauma.
Lesson learned for me, I did never overlook again that my buddy had the proper weighting before jumping from the boat...
But of course I was a student too. The error was made by our instructor. It could have been even worst, my wife was lucky of getting just a barotrauma from this...
 
This is the real problem. So many people, including instructors, keep spreading the idea that no knees is so much harder and they haven't even tried it.

Okay, I'm going to channel this particular IT on how he responded to me. Pete, who are YOU to tell agencies, who have certified millions of divers, that YOU know of a better way of teaching? What agency have YOU started? YOU have a big ego, and that is YOUR problem.

The Kool Aid this guy drank was unbelievable. There was never any questioning of the methods he learned for teaching, never looking for "is there a better way." All the DIR folks who taught NB/T were cultists/elitists/whatever to him. He would never accept the idea that maybe he wasn't as good as he thought he was.

That is part of the problem. I don't waste my time with those people, but I place my efforts with new and experienced instructors alike who wish to experiment and learn how to improve their teaching, just as many people helped me.

It was really dangerous if done in the sea, not in the pool.
My wife's first dive in the sea, in 1976, she was given the wrong weight belt, carrying 8 kg instead of the 2.5 she was used to. And of course a 10+10 liters steel twinset without BCD and a single reg, no SPG.
She did signal to me she was going down (meaning that she was overweighted, but I did not understand), and I said her "Ok, go!" instead of helping here to staying afloat. So she dropped down quickly to the bottom at 10 m without managing to equalize properly and she got a barotrauma.
Lesson learned for me, I did never overlook again that my buddy had the proper weighting before jumping from the boat...
But of course I was a student too. The error was made by our instructor. It could have been even worst, my wife was lucky of getting just a barotrauma from this...

That makes me think that during the pre-dive safety check, divers should say how much weight they have.
 
Okay, I'm going to channel this particular IT on how he responded to me.
That's what the crowd on SB said back in 2002 and 2003. I definitely wasn't the first to figure this out, but I had no one to really learn from. I figured it out as I went. The more I did it, the more I saw how it alleviated all sorts of issues.
 
That's what the crowd on SB said back in 2002 and 2003. I definitely wasn't the first to figure this out, but I had no one to really learn from. I figured it out as I went. The more I did it, the more I saw how it alleviated all sorts of issues.
Pete,

2002/3 is almost 20 years ago. I'm talking about maybe 3 years ago.

I don't understand why it is so hard to get people to open their eyes, but I don't understand a lot of things. I focus my energy on people with open minds, not closed ones. I just have too much on my plate to waste my time and energy.
 
Until I took a cavern class, I was one of them. Then my eyes were open to how many divers, including instructors, have issues with their buoyancy. Now, every one of those instructors believes their buoyancy is fine. But, the proof is in the pudding and their students mimic their poor control.

During my ITC, we went to Three Sisters spring on Crystal River. I was to teach a skill and they pointed me to this incredibly silty area. Oh, there was sand, but it was all on slopes. Trying to get peeps to kneel in that was hilarious, only I wasn't laughing. Just a little movement caused the silt to billow. It was frustrating as all hell. The entire staff laughed during the debriefing and somehow I passed. I think this was the genesis for me thinking that there must be a better way. A half-year into teaching, I actually had one of my students kneel on the reef to clear his mask. He just couldn't see anything wrong with shat he did and I traced it back to him first learning how to clear his mask on his knees. There had to be a better way. I was still kneeling and weaning them off the bottom as early as possible and then I went to teach a class at Alexander Springs. There were more classes than there was room and we all seemed to hit the water at the same time. So, instead of getting all the skills out of the way in the traditional semi-circle. I had my class do their skills over everybody's head. It was probably pretty comical, but I got it done. I even got reported by one of the instructors for "not being in control". The regional director called me about it and finally determined that I had not violated standards. I started trying to eliminate kneeling in the pool after that. I think it took me a couple of classes to do it, but everything became easier. I mean everything. When I suggested this on SB I was called a liar and at least one person still believes I was lying. Meh. I know what I did and when/why I did it. It still stings a bit, but that's life.
That is a very amusing story to say the least.
Curious-- You said you "were one of them". Describe what your issues were back then and exactly what those other instructors' buoyancy problems were. Ie. How bad were they?
 
That is a very amusing story to say the least.
Curious-- You said you "were one of them". Describe what your issues were back then and exactly what those other instructors' buoyancy problems were. Ie. How bad were they?
The theme of my IDC was control. I came into it with horrible awareness, trim and neutral buoyancy. That really didn't matter much if I had control. Control, control, control. The not so unsurprising counters to all this was a well known and respected cave instructor, Reggie Ross, and the guy who brought me to the IDC, Michael Brady. At one point after a control session, Reggie commented that this was why he didn't like teaching OW. I was taught to teach skills on the knees, in the pool, and in a serial fashion. The first two skills you HAD to teach was clearing the mask and reg retrieval and that was done on the knees. On the first dive, I gather my ducks in a little circle and we would go through the serial skills again. Knowing how to clear the mask was the goal. Having them know when to clear their mask and doing it neutral was secondary. But you had to maintain tight control, so keep 'em on their knees where they can't swim away. After the skills were done, take 'em for a swim. Sure, try to get them neutral, but remember it takes a 100 dives to figure all that out, so it's not really your problem. Remember, they only have to hover for 30 freakishly long seconds. Mask clearing and reg retrieval are your real primary tasks to teach.

I didn't like the final product. Not even a bit. I didn't like the product of my fellow instructors. Then I took a cavern course. Getting neutral wasn't that hard when someone cares about it. I would have cared about it earlier, but I didn't know how to do it myself. I had seen it and liked it when I saw it, but even though I thought I had it, I was a mess just like most of my fellow instructors. My cavern course was a watershed event in regards to truly being in control. So then, my focus shifted. I really wanted to produce students I wouldn't be embarrassed to dive with. Since I was taught that my best class would always be the next one, I started to experiment. Some things worked, some never got repeated. At first, I just took extra time after teaching peeps on their knees to get them trim and neutral. At some point, a chance conversation with Reggie at Ginnie Springs helped me to see the connection between being trim and mastering buoyancy. It was all about the direction of thrust. I confided how long my classes had become. BTW, part of being in control is managing time. DON'T WASTE YOUR STUDENT'S TIME! My two-day classes had stretched into 3, 4, and 5-day classes. I think it was Reggie who said something along the lines, wouldn't it be awesome if they didn't have to kneel, especially in OW. Then came the epiphany at Alexander Springs and the experiment shifted focus to getting off the knees in the pool. The first class was epically funny but I kept at it. The second class was night and day better. Could it be that simple? I was back to two days in the pool and they really looked good. Within a month I had a fellow instructor ask when I had started teaching cavern. That was after two days in the pool. The unintended compliment felt good and I shared it here. I was pretty happy about it. Then I was called a liar. I was told that it was impossible, but I was doing it. I was having fun teaching, but if/when I shared it here, I was called a liar.
 
The theme of my IDC was control. I came into it with horrible awareness, trim and neutral buoyancy. That really didn't matter much if I had control. Control, control, control. The not so unsurprising counters to all this was a well known and respected cave instructor, Reggie Ross, and the guy who brought me to the IDC, Michael Brady. At one point after a control session, Reggie commented that this was why he didn't like teaching OW. I was taught to teach skills on the knees, in the pool, and in a serial fashion. The first two skills you HAD to teach was clearing the mask and reg retrieval and that was done on the knees. On the first dive, I gather my ducks in a little circle and we would go through the serial skills again. Knowing how to clear the mask was the goal. Having them know when to clear their mask and doing it neutral was secondary. But you had to maintain tight control, so keep 'em on their knees where they can't swim away. After the skills were done, take 'em for a swim. Sure, try to get them neutral, but remember it takes a 100 dives to figure all that out, so it's not really your problem. Remember, they only have to hover for 30 freakishly long seconds. Mask clearing and reg retrieval are your real primary tasks to teach.

I didn't like the final product. Not even a bit. I didn't like the product of my fellow instructors. Then I took a cavern course. Getting neutral wasn't that hard when someone cares about it. I would have cared about it earlier, but I didn't know how to do it myself. I had seen it and liked it when I saw it, but even though I thought I had it, I was a mess just like most of my fellow instructors. My cavern course was a watershed event in regards to truly being in control. So then, my focus shifted. I really wanted to produce students I wouldn't be embarrassed to dive with. Since I was taught that my best class would always be the next one, I started to experiment. Some things worked, some never got repeated. At first, I just took extra time after teaching peeps on their knees to get them trim and neutral. At some point, a chance conversation with Reggie at Ginnie Springs helped me to see the connection between being trim and mastering buoyancy. It was all about the direction of thrust. I confided how long my classes had become. BTW, part of being in control is managing time. DON'T WASTE YOUR STUDENT'S TIME! My two-day classes had stretched into 3, 4, and 5-day classes. I think it was Reggie who said something along the lines, wouldn't it be awesome if they didn't have to kneel, especially in OW. Then came the epiphany at Alexander Springs and the experiment shifted focus to getting off the knees in the pool. The first class was epically funny but I kept at it. The second class was night and day better. Could it be that simple? I was back to two days in the pool and they really looked good. Within a month I had a fellow instructor ask when I had started teaching cavern. That was after two days in the pool. The unintended compliment felt good and I shared it here. I was pretty happy about it. Then I was called a liar. I was told that it was impossible, but I was doing it. I was having fun teaching, but if/when I shared it here, I was called a liar.

I remember many of us being called liars when we said students could start doing skills neutral and more or less horizontal the first time on SCUBA in the pool. I didn't think it was possible until I left my OW instructor at the DM level to train for tech with a NAUI/YMCA shop and saw it for myself the first time the owner asked me to be an extra set of eyes for a class. I'd just about given up the idea of being a dive pro. Neutral and horizontal from day one after learning buoyancy control using lung volume with snorkel gear.
 
The theme of my IDC was control. I came into it with horrible awareness, trim and neutral buoyancy. That really didn't matter much if I had control. Control, control, control. The not so unsurprising counters to all this was a well known and respected cave instructor, Reggie Ross, and the guy who brought me to the IDC, Michael Brady. At one point after a control session, Reggie commented that this was why he didn't like teaching OW. I was taught to teach skills on the knees, in the pool, and in a serial fashion. The first two skills you HAD to teach was clearing the mask and reg retrieval and that was done on the knees. On the first dive, I gather my ducks in a little circle and we would go through the serial skills again. Knowing how to clear the mask was the goal. Having them know when to clear their mask and doing it neutral was secondary. But you had to maintain tight control, so keep 'em on their knees where they can't swim away. After the skills were done, take 'em for a swim. Sure, try to get them neutral, but remember it takes a 100 dives to figure all that out, so it's not really your problem. Remember, they only have to hover for 30 freakishly long seconds. Mask clearing and reg retrieval are your real primary tasks to teach.

I didn't like the final product. Not even a bit. I didn't like the product of my fellow instructors. Then I took a cavern course. Getting neutral wasn't that hard when someone cares about it. I would have cared about it earlier, but I didn't know how to do it myself. I had seen it and liked it when I saw it, but even though I thought I had it, I was a mess just like most of my fellow instructors. My cavern course was a watershed event in regards to truly being in control. So then, my focus shifted. I really wanted to produce students I wouldn't be embarrassed to dive with. Since I was taught that my best class would always be the next one, I started to experiment. Some things worked, some never got repeated. At first, I just took extra time after teaching peeps on their knees to get them trim and neutral. At some point, a chance conversation with Reggie at Ginnie Springs helped me to see the connection between being trim and mastering buoyancy. It was all about the direction of thrust. I confided how long my classes had become. BTW, part of being in control is managing time. DON'T WASTE YOUR STUDENT'S TIME! My two-day classes had stretched into 3, 4, and 5-day classes. I think it was Reggie who said something along the lines, wouldn't it be awesome if they didn't have to kneel, especially in OW. Then came the epiphany at Alexander Springs and the experiment shifted focus to getting off the knees in the pool. The first class was epically funny but I kept at it. The second class was night and day better. Could it be that simple? I was back to two days in the pool and they really looked good. Within a month I had a fellow instructor ask when I had started teaching cavern. That was after two days in the pool. The unintended compliment felt good and I shared it here. I was pretty happy about it. Then I was called a liar. I was told that it was impossible, but I was doing it. I was having fun teaching, but if/when I shared it here, I was called a liar.
OK I follow all of what you say. You said you had horrible awareness, trim and neutral buoyancy. I understand trim, as I guess your instructor(s) paid little or no attention to that. "Awareness"- explain. Horrible neutral buoyancy-- what were you actually doing-- like, crashing into reefs and the bottom? Kicking up a ton of silt?
 
OK I follow all of what you say. You said you had horrible awareness, trim and neutral buoyancy. I understand trim, as I guess your instructor(s) paid little or no attention to that. "Awareness"- explain. Horrible neutral buoyancy-- what were you actually doing-- like, crashing into reefs and the bottom? Kicking up a ton of silt?
My instructors paid about as much attention to trim as the majority of other instructors I saw. When asked how to achieve neutral buoyancy, they never mentioned the importance of trim and they both told me that getting neutral will take about a hundred dives. The one who actually gave me a c-card was even a caver. At one point he told me that I had better buoyancy than any of his other students. I probably had 300 dives by the time I got certified.

Awareness is a skill I have only heard mentioned once by another OW instructor. It needs to be an integral part of OW training, especially in regards to being a buddy. To me, learning to listen to your buddy breathing needs to be stressed from the beginning. Learning to feel with all your senses, even your fins, is just as important. Awareness, trim, neutral buoyancy, and propulsion were all learned in my cavern class. Certain epiphanies happened later on, but the basis of it all was right there. It wasn't really hard to master and I was made to feel that I had some uncanny knack for these. But teaching them has taught me that they are incredibly easy to impart if you take the time and do it. Moreover, once they start down this road, learning accelerates dramatically because you've removed all fear from going out of control. IOW, there is no reason for me to feel I am special in learning these skills as they are incredibly easy if you just choose to do them.

Silting: most silters never realize that they are causing mayhem behind them. Feet down (lack of trim) and a lack of awareness are the main contributors. Kneeling on the bottom to teach students really adds to that. Sure, we aim for rock or sand, but our students don't have our eye to discern between what is easily silted out and what isn't. It sets a horrible example that's entirely avoidable. If you feel most people have adequate trim/neutral buoyancy, then go take a cavern course. It might open your eyes just as mine were opened. My unofficial goal is to produce a diver ready to take a cavern course. Yes, they need many more dives and experience, but their buoyancy should be more than adequate for that.

I hope I answered the questions for you.
 
My instructors paid about as much attention to trim as the majority of other instructors I saw. When asked how to achieve neutral buoyancy, they never mentioned the importance of trim and they both told me that getting neutral will take about a hundred dives. The one who actually gave me a c-card was even a caver. At one point he told me that I had better buoyancy than any of his other students. I probably had 300 dives by the time I got certified.

Awareness is a skill I have only heard mentioned once by another OW instructor. It needs to be an integral part of OW training, especially in regards to being a buddy. To me, learning to listen to your buddy breathing needs to be stressed from the beginning. Learning to feel with all your senses, even your fins, is just as important. Awareness, trim, neutral buoyancy, and propulsion were all learned in my cavern class. Certain epiphanies happened later on, but the basis of it all was right there. It wasn't really hard to master and I was made to feel that I had some uncanny knack for these. But teaching them has taught me that they are incredibly easy to impart if you take the time and do it. Moreover, once they start down this road, learning accelerates dramatically because you've removed all fear from going out of control. IOW, there is no reason for me to feel I am special in learning these skills as they are incredibly easy if you just choose to do them.

Silting: most silters never realize that they are causing mayhem behind them. Feet down (lack of trim) and a lack of awareness are the main contributors. Kneeling on the bottom to teach students really adds to that. Sure, we aim for rock or sand, but our students don't have our eye to discern between what is easily silted out and what isn't. It sets a horrible example that's entirely avoidable. If you feel most people have adequate trim/neutral buoyancy, then go take a cavern course. It might open your eyes just as mine were opened. My unofficial goal is to produce a diver ready to take a cavern course. Yes, they need many more dives and experience, but their buoyancy should be more than adequate for that.

I hope I answered the questions for you.
Thanks, it does. I should probably take a cavern course, but most likely won't (don't think we have one here anyway). My feet are a little down from the horizontal position, but by putting my arms out I can correct this without attaching weights here & there. As most of my dives are solo, I pay little attention to the feet-- should they kick up anything (and they do if a silty bottom, even if 2-3 feet above it), it merely provides a route I may want to follow back to shore.....I only use the frog kick to vary things, as opposed to avoid kicking up stuff.
The odd time I'm with a buddy I take care not to leave a trail.
Other than that, I have been commended by instructors on my buoyancy.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

Back
Top Bottom