Instructors Proficiency

[markfm]

A toughie -- there's a binary state, a person is either qualified to teach something, or not. Having more than one tier for a given level would be a bit odd, as a consumer -- "Hmm, do I go to the guy who's kinda qualified, or the one who's really qualified? Hmm, if I go to the one who's kinda qualified, get an OW cert, can I hire H2OAndy when I get DCS, vetching that the lower tier cert instructor clearly mustn't have taught me properly, why didn't the cert agency require all Instructors to keep displaying proficiency..." THAT question should not be left to the consumer -- either the cert agency believes the person is qualified, or not, that they have displayed the mandatory skills to teach a given thing. If an agency does not believe that their standards for accreditation are sufficient, that they are "iffy", they should be beefing them up.
(I know that there's a caveat emptor aspect to all of this, that the buyer should conduct as good a due diligence on their instructor as feasible, talk to them, but by definition you DON'T know all the right things to do, in a new skill area -- you are relying on the agency to have been satisified that the person is qualified to teach something.)

 

[The Kraken]

Commercial pilots certainly have to complete periodic check rides.
FAA is pretty big on that.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Let me turn this debate around 180 degrees... and one of the mods is welcome to break this out into a distinct thread if they wish.

Let's say an agency undertook a voluntary periodic evaluation of the skills (in water and in classroom) of its leadership core. An instructor would take the evaluation and when she passed would be entitled to display some sort of higher rating to show she had invested time, effort and so on into her personal and professional development.

Do you think consumers would be interested in paying a little extra to be taught by a "top echelon" instructor? After all, they would have taken time away from making a living to get recertified or evaluated. And the instructor-trainers who tested them would have to be paid. shouldn't they be able to make this lost revenue and fee back somehow?

Just a thought.

To add another slant on it...maybe if every instructor we saw in the water was "slick" their diveing skills almost above reproach and they were tested for such and it showed in their students then...maybe instructors would be true professionals rather that minimum wage, dime a dozen resort bums.

I don't know which came first the chicken or the egg but money comes into it someplace. If an instructor works for peanuts then he/she is worth peanuts and what can you reasonably expect from some one who is worth peanuts.

The quality we have in dive instruction is probably pretty good considering the way things are done in the industry. The money is in selling gear. If it weren't for the part time instructors who are doctors, lawyers, engineers or whatever and are willing to teach for perks we'd probably be in real trouble. "Full time" instruction is something mostly done by shop owners who can't afford to hire it out, kids between school sessions and a few beach bums who are willing to work for the privilage of living in paradise. Professionals? I say they're just part of the food chain. The agency makes a small fortune making you an instructor and anual membership, sells you teaching materials that you are required to use. The shop gives you gear (that you are required to have to teach for them) rather than cash. Now, how about this...I'll let you spend a buch more money next year teaching if you travel accross country to take another test for the low low price of $400? How many takers would we have? LOL

My first teaching job was for a local dive shop. They payed me by the student per dive, classroom session or confined water session. Since I was the new guy I often taught on very short notice and small classes (a good thing because it's not like they sent me a DM) and most often it didn't even pay my expenses. What kind of standards can you hold me to when it costs me money to teach and staying home would put me money ahead and get the grass cut?

There is some truth in the saying "You get what you pay for". There is no end to the things we could do to improve instruction. The question is will the market pay for it and does any one care?

Any one who takes a $199 dollar 3 day OW class and thinks they're getting an instructor who is highly trained, highly capable, tested and held to high strandards is flat out off their rocker. The QA has been compared/contrasted to doctors and airline pilots in this thread. What does an airline pilot or a doctor make? You can hold any one to any standards you like. You can require any testing or continueing ed you'd like. All you have to do is make it worth their while to jump through the hoops.

Shop time in a machine shop or engineering time is going to run you $100/man hour (pay and benifits). If you want a dive instructor of similar pro quality that you are going to hold to similar standards that's what it will cost even though pilots and doctors can make much much more. To put things in perspective a good 30+ hour (40 is more like it) OW class would probably run about $1200 bucks per student in a resonably sized class. Hey isn't that about what a trimix class costs minus a few hundred in gas, boat fees and instructor expenses? LOL

 

[Doppler]

Well Mike: we knew we'd get there eventually... correct!


Your point and mine really come back to the market's perception of value. At the recreational level there can be little doubt that history indicates consumers shop for price first, timing second, with quality a distant third.

That said, if we want to change things, we have to start someplace.

As you know, the only recreational courses I get to teach these days are instructor development and evaluations. But the technical programs suffer similarly. Your remarks about a trimix class is about on target... I charge slightly less but that may change soon since the cost of helium (part of my cost of doing business) is going up dramatically. I spend an average of 47 hours delivering a trimix class. The maximum number of students allowed is four. Often, it's three. I feel this helps me to present a class that's good value and comprehensive.

Part of my personal marketing strategy is to spend about six weeks a year on personal development... workshops, study and diving.

Do the math... if I want to spend time with my family... which would be nice... I have about 40 weeks a year to actually earn a living!

 

[wedivebc]

C'mon guys you all know what the first 2 questions a potential student ask when they walk into a dive store. "How much...How long" and take their business to who ever has the lower number. The big problem is educating the non-diving public that this attitude is what is getting us in trouble. NAUI did address this with a cool series of ads "Got training" but the public wants fast and cheap. So how do you fit quality instruction into that equation?

 

[MikeFerrara]

C'mon guys you all know what the first 2 questions a potential student ask when they walk into a dive store. "How much...How long" and take their business to who ever has the lower number. The big problem is educating the non-diving public that this attitude is what is getting us in trouble. NAUI did address this with a cool series of ads "Got training" but the public wants fast and cheap. So how do you fit quality instruction into that equation?

I don't know if it's as much a matter of educating the public as it is those in the industry.

When I owned a dive shop it was a daily thing to have some one walk and be in a rush to get certified because they're about to leave on a trip. Next they'd complain about the cost because of the thousands they already had tied up in the trip. It was as if they thought I was somehow obligated to fix it so they could dive because they spent good money on a trip. These people were spending big money but they percieve value in airlines, restaurants, resorts and not dive instruction. But why? Because the guy down the street does it for $99. If you don't think you're worth anything then why should any one else.

Charge them alot and make them stand in line. I think there is a market for class A dive training.

Look at the GUE funimentals course. The ones I've seen are really 2 day classes...Sat. a somewhat short Sun and friday evening. The cost is usually about $300/student and the students split the instructors expenses. Now that's $1800 for class of 6 and even with 2 instructors they're making a decent wage. Lots of good people are willing to work for $450/day. it's a little less when you consider travel time but you get the idea. Make it $20/day and you get a whole different class of instructor. The product is noticably different though. In contrast an OW class is in the junk bond catagory. It's just about worthless and being able to provide one gives you just about zero earning potential...unless you sell a bunch of equipment to the people your giving away a class to.

Instructors other than GUE instructors are doing ok too but you have to be teaching the technical courses that people are still willing to spend a little money on. In recreational diving you pretty much would have to be at least a course director (instructor trainer) and/or own the shop so you can sell equipment. Of course there's other pitfalls to owning a shop like having to find a way to provide a low cost OW class so you can get some equipment sold...and teaching entry level classes really is often just part of the cost of equipment sales rather than a profit center. Of course the internet is putting the squeeze on equipment markups so we'll see how long that lasts. this, BTW, is a major part of why I think it's so bogus to to trust the QA system to the dive shop. They're the ones who stand the most to gain by cheating. The economics just about force them to shave the standards pretty this. Most may not violate them but the ones making money know where all the holes are and how to use them. I've seen some real masters at it.

The whole dive industry reminds me of Amway or something.

 

[wedivebc]

Look at the GUE funimentals course. The ones I've seen are really 2 day classes...Sat. a somewhat short Sun and friday evening. The cost is usually about $300/student and the students split the instructors expenses. Now that's $1800 for class of 6 and even with 2 instructors they're making a decent wage. Lots of good people are willing to work for $450/day. it's a little less when you consider travel time but you get the idea. Make it $20/day and you get a whole different class of instructor. The product is noticably different though. In contrast an OW class is in the junk bond catagory. It's just about worthless and being able to provide one gives you just about zero earning potential...unless you sell a bunch of equipment to the people your giving away a class to.

There is a great example, and maybe that is why GUE has not embarked in basic OW training. Until you get a couple of dives in you don't know what you don't know. Once you realize there is more to diving than breathing under water then you become willing to pay for better education.

 

[Tom Smedley]

My cousin and I taught ourselves to dive in 1963. We bought a book and did some study and used a steel 71.2 cu ft tank and an Aqualung regulator with a serial number of 134.

I finally got certified in 1969 when I had difficulty getting air fills without a c-card. I decided to become an instructor in 1979. I am or have been an instructor for PADI, YMCA, NAUI, NASDS, and SSI.

I have taught with clubs, shops, and independently. I am presently affiliated with the same shop as Rick. In our shop we have about 200 years combined experience in diving and instructing. If I am teaching a class and get sick or just want to go on a hot date to the ballet, I can call Rick or one of three other instructors and they will take my class for me that night. Our lesson plans and slates are coordinated so all I have to say is I am on pool three. Rick takes over and the change is transparent to the students (except that he is a lot older than me). When I was independent one time my students had to delay class for two weeks because I got an ear infection. Team teaching is great.

When I was an independent instructor I had to save up and buy six sets of my own gear and maintain it. I also had to haul tanks to the nearest LDS (100 mile round trip) after each class to have them filled. I also had to pay rent on a pool. In the team concept, I show up fifteen minutes before class and my students, tanks and equipment are waiting. Team teaching is great.

Rick and myself each average 200 open water dives per year and average 112 students each ranging from entry level to instructor each year. We are in the pool an awful lot and we clear our masks, establish neutral buoyancy, practice shared air ascents, do rescues etc etc about 5000 times per year. We also spend a lot of time playing with and adjusting and just enjoying the feel of our tech stuff. We do community service where we take blind folks diving, allow underprivileged kids to enjoy the experience and look for guns and cars and unfortunate ones who have suffered terminal events in the water for the Sheriff's Department. I average three out-of-country dive trips per year.

We must be doing ok cause folks keep coming to us for training, advice, and to share in our little Hodag family adventures. I guess what I'm trying to say is that Ricky and I do maintain our proficiency - Now - do you practice your skills that often? I guess if instructors need to be tested every so often then divers need to be retested too. I guess if that happened it would be more revenue for me and a lot of howling from you.

Also - I have learned through experience that folks don't have to have a PhD in Marine Biology or be proficient in deep cave penetration or trimix theory to enjoy themselves as recreational divers. Just like driving a car, the license (c-card) is proof that you have learned basic theory and experience makes you comfortable and experienced. Most drivers do not have the skills of a professional race car celebrity. Most divers don't have and don't want technical diving proficiency.

 

[Rick Murchison]

Rick ... is a lot older than me

Liar liar pants on fire... we know who's older'n dirt...
HHhhaarrrr!
Rick (mere pup)

 

[Doppler]

Liar liar pants on fire... we know who's older'n dirt...
HHhhaarrrr!
Rick (mere pup)

Rick: it's quite obvious that you are the younger since your behavior (and your youthful appearance) gives you away everytime.