Instructors - Agencies Split from overweight

[MikeFerrara]

You are the ones who make the assertion that the standards don't support being neutral. There it is, in BLACK AND WHITE and you still are having a problem with it. Do you argue this passionately with the sign post as you take the wrong way home? It is OBVIOUS that the facts have been systematically ignored by you here.

Now the dynamic trio are engaged in trying to prove that the standard doesn't mean what it says it means. I would say quattro, but one is not even an instructor. Instead of being GLAD that the standard is there, we are now delving into semantics or asking whether it is "bold" or not. It's either there or it's not. The standards require depth control or they don't.

Agencies and instructors, are not as incompetent as you, Thalassamania, Mike and Sparticle would have us believe. No, they don't teach the way you do. No, they don't necessarily emphasize what you emphasize. Most of the instructors that I have met are just as impassioned as you or I about teaching the sport. Tearing them and the agencies down does not make you a better instructor.

No Pete. What I quoted from the standards in my last post IS the black and white directly from the standards pertaining to the tour portion of the OW dives. Please note, that it is exactly as I claimed. There are NO performance requirements for the tour and for 3 of the 4 dives, the instructor isn't even required to be in the water.

Again, trying to simplify as much as I can, the requirement that AZZA quoted has nothing to do with any OW dive tour and, in fact, pertains to a portion of the course before ANY skill relating to buoyancy control is ever introduced. It doesn't make sense that it's there at all except they are trying to get the student to kick their way across the pool so they can be taken on OW dive 1 before being taught anything to do with buoyancy control in keeping with the "Dive Today" philosophy (the resort dive thing) and be given training credit for it.

You should really read this stuff and give it some thought before you accuse me of anything. I don't know how I can be clearer. The standards do indeed support every statement that I made about them and it isn't me that's trying to read something into them that just isn't there.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Is this why you don't teach? Because you can't assertain who has a safe attitude and who does not? How does ANYONE objectify an attitude? You can't. But that's no reason to not look at it and having an unsafe attitude will stop you from passing my course.

You don't objectify attitude. You objectify performance and behavior.

ok, so you fail a student for having an unsafe attitude? Please define unsafe attitude for me but...don't use my grandmother in the definition. She is almost 90 and in very poor health. It would definately be unsafe to take her diving.

 

[The Kraken]

I really haven't been following this argument for quite a few posts because it hasn't been addressing the issue of WHY the victim was overweighted, but only bashing about agency standards. But suffice it to say, the PADI standards IN ALL 4 OF THE OPEN WATER DIVES require the student diver to do a proper entry into the water and establish proper buoyancy.

In open water dive #4, the PADI standards add an additional requiremt that the student diver add additional weight if diving a full tank to acommodate for the buoyancy swing between a full and empty tank.

I do hope this statement will put to rest this on-going and, what I consider, useless diatribe and allow everyone to get back to the crux of the matter.

We need to focus on what were the immediate causes of this horrible tragedy which took the life of a beloved wife and mother in order that maybe, just maybe, we will be able to prevent such accidents in the future.

the K

 

[northen diver]

 

[The Chairman]

pertains to a portion of the course before ANY skill relating to buoyancy control is ever introduced.

So buoyancy control IS introduced. My, my... but you said they didn't require it.

Mike, it sounds as if you don't like the way it is written. Now, I don't know about PADI, but there can be NO OW dive instruction going on, confined or otherwise without having the instructor IN the water. Maybe someone with the current PADI standards can state otherwise. I can't see a competent instructor, PADI or otherwise, not wanting to be with their students.

But according to what has been presented and by your own words, PADI requires buoyancy control.

 

[The Chairman]

Please define unsafe attitude for me

Not having a safe attitude. Now Mike, if you don't know what a safe attitude is by now you should probably rethink diving.

 

[Walter]

You are the ones who make the assertion that the standards don't support being neutral. There it is, in BLACK AND WHITE and you still are having a problem with it. Do you argue this passionately with the sign post as you take the wrong way home? It is OBVIOUS that the facts have been systematically ignored by you here.

No Pete, I have not ignored it. I asked where it was located, so I could read it. I also said it sounds good. Since it was taken out of context, I don't know how good it sounds until I see to what it exactly refers. Hopefully, it will be a new requirement for all dives in open water. If it is, I'll start a thread praising PADI for the change. You've been getting down on folks for talking about things of which they have no direct knowledge. Now you are putting me down for waiting until I can research a point before commenting on it. Why?

we are now delving into semantics or asking whether it is "bold" or not. It's either there or it's not. The standards require depth control or they don't.

Well, I don't write PADI standards, but I have read them. In the PADI manual, only those things in BOLD are actually part of the standards. If it's in the manual, but in regular type (most of the manual), it is not required. It may be a recommendation or an explanation, but it's not required and it's not part of the standards. You know that, you used to be a PADI DM. Asking if it is in bold is crucial to understanding if "The standards require depth control or they don't."

 

[Steve R]

Mike, it sounds as if you don't like the way it is written. Now, I don't know about PADI,.....

Then maybe you should stop right there.

And in case you missed it somewhere along the way, what is written is the standard, so of course how it is written should be important. Obviously Padi's standards as written are kinda dorky, but that's how they want it, and that what they judge their instructors by, so if it ain't there, or is clearly in the wrong order, then why would we judge the instructor or student against standards they aren't being broken regardless of how poorly their students and these instructors are coming out. Clearly, Padi wants it exactly how it is.

Of course $150.00 or so would get me current with these bozo's, so I could tell you the exact same thing as a 'current" padi instructor....lol.

Oh, and they still send Mike renewal notices....roflmao

I can't see a competent instructor, PADI or otherwise, not wanting to be with their students.

It's in the Padi standards dude.....you seeing it or not is irrelevant to their standards.

And please, watch how close you get the words competant and Padi in the same sentence...lol. I've seen one too many Padi IE's and filed too many QA's not not howl at their whole sorry-arsed set-up........lol :mooner:

 

[MikeFerrara]

So buoyancy control IS introduced. My, my... but you said they didn't require it.

No sir, I did not! I said it isn't required during the tour portion of the OW dives (the actual diving part). On three of the four dives, the instructor isn't even required to be there to evaluate. What part of this is confusing you?

Mike, it sounds as if you don't like the way it is written. Now, I don't know about PADI, but there can be NO OW dive instruction going on, confined or otherwise without having the instructor IN the water. Maybe someone with the current PADI standards can state otherwise. I can't see a competent instructor, PADI or otherwise, not wanting to be with their students.

Well Pete, I don't know what to tell you. On OW dives 2, 3 and 4 a certified assistant (DM or assistant instructor) can lead the tour portion of the dive without the instructor being in the water.

I have a better one for you. For most AOW dives the instructor may indirectly supervise. That means they are on site and in control of activities but they do NOT need to be in the water!.

The only AOW dive where the instructor is required to be in the water is the deep dive. The wreck dive and night dive may be supervised by a certified assistant. Students can do all the other possible AOW training dives (adventure dives) without either an instructor or a certified assistant in the water with them. The instructor can briefe them and send them diving.

An example would be the nav dive. The students can just go do the dive on their own. I often see instructors watching the bubble trail from shore. S&R PPB, or whatever? The same thing.

It doesn't sound like you think this is a good thingh. I don't either. By al means check it out for yourself. All these points have been in the standards for MANY years.

But according to what has been presented and by your own words, PADI requires buoyancy control.

Yes there are the fin pivots in confined and open water. There is the 30 second hover in confined water dive 4. There is a 30 ft neutral swim in confined water dive 3. There is the requirement to get neutral at some point during OW dive 4. It used to be a one minute hover but they took out the time limit. So...all together the student has to be off the bottom for a minute...maybe 90 seconds depending on how fast they swim the 30 ft.

So what do you think Pete, how good will a student get in 90 seconds or so?

Want to go into the buoyancy control requirements of the AOW course? That won't take long because there aren't any...and, remember, the instructor doesn't have to be in the water anyway. LOL

 

[MikeFerrara]

Not having a safe attitude. Now Mike, if you don't know what a safe attitude is by now you should probably rethink diving.

I know what I think a safe attitude is but that doesn't really answer the question I asked does it. ok, You said that NAUI wants you to be willing to send your grandmother out diving with a student you intent to certify? That sounds rather subjective. How are you to decide whether or not your willing to do that? What are you required to objectively MEASURE?