Instructor Requirements- continued...

[DiveTyme]

jbd:Indeed wise use of ones time is critical. In regards to buoyancy and trim training I see no point in spending time with fin pivots and buddha position since they aren't things that will be done during normal diving. Spend the time straight away on buoyancy control in a horizontal position. Diving students really do catch on to this very quickly when shown what they are aiming for.
__________________

Again I agree with you... mostly. I do like fin pivots not so much for buoyancy, but for demoing the use of the inflator. I do think it is a worthless skill to be required in the open water.
Tim

 

[Walter]

The reality is that the Student don't really know if he can handle it until he tries. That's exactly what Confidence Drills did in a controlled pool environment, such as the Ditch-n-Don (aka Recover) and the NAUI Bailout: they gave the student a basic challenge where he had to decide which of his skills to apply in which order.

Even if the student never has an accident where he needs to apply this in real life, these drills still will have served at least two beneficial purposes:

1. Doing something that you thought you wouldn't be able to do, but perservered and accomplished, is a fundamentally wonderful thing.

2. Confident, comfortable divers are better divers. Maybe that can help minimize the industry's new diver drop-out rate...

Excellent points. I completely agree. I do wonder why you call bail out, "NAUI Bailout" when NAUI is not one of the agencies that require bailout.

 

[-hh]

Excellent points. I completely agree. I do wonder why you call bail out, "NAUI Bailout" when NAUI is not one of the agencies that require bailout.

I don't know why either. Just always heard it called that, and I'm not personally aware of what years that it was required (if any), versus what years it was optional but recommended, etc.

I do vaguely recall someone at sometime who claimed that the NAUI version of the bailout was somehow different than other Agency's protocols. It could be that some people were getting it confused with Ditch-n-Don (D&D) and Remove-n-Recover (R&R) drills.

The 'bailout' I was referring to involves standing at the edge of the pool with ALL of your gear in hand (usually strung along the left arm) and air turned off. The diver shouts "NAUI!" as he jumps in*, settles to the bottom and gets dressed without losing control of any of the equipment. Once you get everything in place, you surface.


* - probably in part where the NAUI name label came from. The reason that the shout is present here is to force the diver to exhale, so that he has to use alternate means of clearing the regulator.


One variation deletes the "NAUI!" exhale as the diver jumps in the water. But with a big held breath, the diver may be unable to sink to start the exercise

Another variation requires the diver to tread water for five minutes after he surfaces. No buoyancy from air in the BC is allowed, obviously.

Yet another variation has this treading of water done with your hands out of the water to increase the challenge.

And I'm sure there's other variations too.

-hh

PS:

D&D: Ditch 'n Don: jump in with all your gear on and with an established air supply, swim to the bottom of the pool, take it all off, laying it in a pile and surface safely wearing no gear (note risk of lung expansion injury here). Do a breathhold surface dive back down to your gear, establish your air supply and then put it all back on. When complete, surface normally on scuba.

R&R: Remove & Recover: jump in with all your gear on and with an established air supply, swim to the bottom of the pool, take a piece off (or several pieces, up to all of your gear) while underwater and then put it (up to all) back on. When complete, surface normally on scuba.

 

[Walter]

Bailout and Doff & Don are still required in the YMCA OW Course. Ditch & Don is not required, but is slightly different from your description. With a Ditch & Don, the gear is dropped in, the diver swims down and puts it all on. Doff & Don is essentially how you described Ditch & Don, although the starting point is in the water. Yelling "NAUI" is not a part of bailout, although I'm sure an imaginitive and gung ho NAUI instructor or two has required it of students. Bailout is essentially as you described, with no shout and a giant stride instead of a jump.

 

[Hank49]

Any skill you do under water while breathing from a regulator is good when you're learning to use scuba. Is twirling a basketball in a figure 8 around your calves something you do in a game? no. Does it help you get the feel for handling a ball? yes. Is crab walking around the wrestling mat something you do in a match? no. Does it condition your muscles for wrestling? yes. Remember your first time in confined water? Just not falling over backwards was an accomplishment. It seems some are too hung up on diving with "perfect form", swimming with your hands folded in front of you... it looks like it just tires your shoulders to me. As long as you're not kicking up silt, breaking coral or kicking your buddy's mask off, who cares how you look? Have fun. That's why we dive.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Any skill you do under water while breathing from a regulator is good when you're learning to use scuba. Is twirling a basketball in a figure 8 around your calves something you do in a game? no. Does it help you get the feel for handling a ball? yes. Is crab walking around the wrestling mat something you do in a match? no. Does it condition your muscles for wrestling? yes.

I agree but...the point isn't that games in the water aren't an aid to learning because they certainly can be. The point is that their not a substitute. We offer the buddha hover in place of teaching the mechanics of balance and trim and I believe that's inadequate.

Using the PADI materials as an example because I'm familiar with them...the only course that addresses that subject at all is the PPB class which isn't required and few take (including instructors). At that the courses explaination isn't exactly correct or complete. again the point relative to this thread is that you can progress all the way to instructor without learning it or demonstrating that you know it. yet...once you are an instructor you are automatically qualified to teach it since all instructors can teach PPB.

Remember your first time in confined water? Just not falling over backwards was an accomplishment.

This is a problem that some students have when trying to kneel. My answer is we skip teaching students to balance while kneeling on the bottom since I don't really think it has anything to do with diving. We work on getting them used to doing everything in a prone position right from the beginning even if they can't help but touch the bottom in the very beginning.

It seems some are too hung up on diving with "perfect form", swimming with your hands folded in front of you... it looks like it just tires your shoulders to me. As long as you're not kicking up silt, breaking coral or kicking your buddy's mask off, who cares how you look? Have fun. That's why we dive.

It's not about perfect form for the sake of looks. It's about learning the mechanics and practicing the techniques that enable control which first makes diving safer and second makes it WAY more fun.

 

[Diver0001]

It seems some are too hung up on diving with "perfect form", swimming with your hands folded in front of you...

Yes. In fact looking bad *is* the biggest sin there is in scuba diving.

It comes in just ahead of not learning everything you'll ever need to know in OW, a SAC above 0.4 and my all time favorite, owning a jacket style BCD.

R..

 

[Hank49]

Sorry I drifted off topic a bit but I was responding to some posts stating that some skills are a waste of time. I still believe that any time under water while geared up is valualbe when you're first learning. Laying on the bottom, buddha hovering...just trying to to swim and not drag your belly along the bottom is all practice. You need to get the feel of water and your gear. But, to get back to the topic....
I didn't even think about the level of experience my OW instructor had. I didn't know how many years he'd been diving. I didn't learn good trim from him and probably couldn't have in that short of a time. (He was good though, looking back on it) I don't think an OW instructor has to have 2000 dives under his belt. As long as she/he can demonstrate the skills required, and get you to do the same, and make you understand the safety rules of diving, he's/she's done the job.

 

[padiscubapro]

This thread is directed mainly towards new or non professional divers.
And by non-professional, I mean one who is not a part of an instructional team.

There was an existing thread in this forum up until today that has been moved to the instructors forum, but a moderator suggested we post the question in the open forums for new divers to answer.

The question being, how much experience do you think is needed before somebody becomes an Instructor.
For PADI, the recommendations are - 100 dives, 6 months diving.
Forgive me, but I'm not aware of other organisational requirements as I am a PADI man.

Would you be happy being taught an Advanced / Open Water / Rescue or even Divemaster course by somebody who actually has less experience than you?

Or do you think it's perfectly ok to become an instructor "once they've been taught how to teach correctly"

The board is yours

Scubafreak

I was originally certified by padi as an instructor. The training does a reasonable job of putting a diver on the right path but there is still alot for the individual instructor to now learn.

I am now an ANDI It and fell the method that we use produces qualified instructors.. Our progression is a bit different than others..

It starts with becomming a DM like the others agencies but also requires oxygen administration and nitrox certifications,plus a specific internship requirements as an active observer. The DM program can only be taught by instructors with at least 3 years TEACHING experience.

Now the DM enrolls to become an AI, he must assist with OW classes, prepare and present lesson plans and assist evealuating students under the direct supervision of an instructro. AI ratings can only be granted by instructors active for 3 years or more. After certification the AI has certain elements that he /she can teach without an instructor present, others must be under indirect (or direct) supervision of an instructor (An AI can evaluate OWD skills under the supervision of an OWI).. Upon certification the instructor is saying the AI is now ready to be sent to an IT for specific training and evaluation. IF the apprentiship period (for AI) was less than 4 months, this time must be completed before being evaluated by the IT.

The final instructor coarse takes 3 days of pool/class and ow work. The It now will either give rating of OWI or OWIP (p for provisional).
The provisional rating is more commonly issued which requires the new instructor to teach 3 classes (the pool work can be conducted solo but the ow dives must be under the supervision of another instructor). The provisional instructor must provide signed statments from the "supervising" instructor that the classes were performed safely and within standards.

 

[Mako Mark]

I will grant that some will gain fluency quicker than others , and .

thats all..

Admit it, the buddha is nicely impressive and great for demo purposes, because you can face the students and holding your fintips demonstrates that it's perfectly possible to hover without sculling....

I agree, the Buddha position probably derives from an effort to stop students sculling or using their hands, kinda like getting them to fold their arms during finpivots to stop UW pushups.

Someone should PM ZenDiver for the definative answer though

2. Confident, comfortable divers are better divers. Maybe that can help minimize the industry's new diver drop-out rate...
-hh

this sounds like you are saying that if we fail half of them, then we will reduce the dropout rates of certified divers. This is a flawed logic.

FWIW, please note that I'm not talking about 'Harassment' training...that's another discussion entirely. I'm talking about nothing more than skill integration while in a very basic dive troubleshooting environment.
-hh

I am all for harassment training, but in technical diving which is not for everyone, I believe that recreational diving is for nearly everyone..

I see no point in spending time with fin pivots and buddha position since they aren't things that will be done during normal diving.

You are right, we dont use these during diving, but they do show cause and effect between breathing and bouyancy, which needs to be learned before it can be applied to diving.

I The final instructor coarse takes 3 days of pool/class and ow work. .

WOW, my instructor program usually takes 10 to 12 days and then the two day exam. I cant imagine how anyone can teach a three day instructor course, no matter what the pre requisites are.