Instructor putting his students at risk?

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My small group (all MSDT or higher) do some negative entries on fun dives that are in rough water. The last time was 14-16 ft rollers off Blue Corner in Palau. I would never take students or lead a dive with a negative enty. The four of us a know the risk and plan a depth to get back together before we continue. The Palau dive had a 6ft surge at 65 ft.
 
OP -- Thank You for standing up and saying "YOU SCREWED UP."

I don't recall saying that... To be quite honest at this point I could care less. I did my job and then some. The dive would have happened with or with out me. They were his students and they believed in him. I got in be because I was worried that something was going to happen. Not to my surprise it did. Had I not the outcome very well could have been tragic. Some of you seem to think it would have been better to sit out to make a statement, followed with I told you so. That was a price far to high for me to pay. I'm sure had I not intervened and a diver got injured or died I might be held responsible since I agreed to dive with them given the conditions set by the instructor and the captain. Moral ground is a fine line to walk when you do this for a living. To high, good luck getting work. To low, good luck staying employed when someone gets hurt on your watch. If you don't walk this line then you need not reply to this thread, just sit back on your high horse and save your I told you so for someone else. I'm not a part time scuba diver, this is my life. Sunday isn't my day off it a requirement unless I want to spend Monday doing decompression dives...
 
Zen Diver you are 100% wrong as far as responsibilities go. Unless Brendon is a Coast Guard licensed crew member he is just a passenger like anyone else on the boat. (Look up the lawsuit in CA where the diver got left at sea) The Captain is responsible for everything that happens on that boat from the time it leaves port to the time it returns, including the dive operation. This instructor was a bone head. He didn't teach or instill proper water entry, you know the part about holding your mask to your face and reg in your mouth. I' ve been in this same situation and it sucks. The only thing I would have done different is to "counsel" this "Instructor" out of earshot of his students and then do a post dive with pointers to the diver and his buddy.
 
Zen Diver you are 100% wrong as far as responsibilities go. Unless Brendon is a Coast Guard licensed crew member he is just a passenger like anyone else on the boat. (Look up the lawsuit in CA where the diver got left at sea) The Captain is responsible for everything that happens on that boat from the time it leaves port to the time it returns, including the dive operation. This instructor was a bone head. He didn't teach or instill proper water entry, you know the part about holding your mask to your face and reg in your mouth. I' ve been in this same situation and it sucks. The only thing I would have done different is to "counsel" this "Instructor" out of earshot of his students and then do a post dive with pointers to the diver and his buddy.

I think had anyone been hurt here the captain would have been held responsible too. He should have listened to the person that was on the boat to conduct the dive.
 
Zen Diver you are 100% wrong as far as responsibilities go. Unless Brendon is a Coast Guard licensed crew member he is just a passenger like anyone else on the boat. (Look up the lawsuit in CA where the diver got left at sea) The Captain is responsible for everything that happens on that boat from the time it leaves port to the time it returns, including the dive operation. This instructor was a bone head. He didn't teach or instill proper water entry, you know the part about holding your mask to your face and reg in your mouth. I' ve been in this same situation and it sucks. The only thing I would have done different is to "counsel" this "Instructor" out of earshot of his students and then do a post dive with pointers to the diver and his buddy.
Nope. I'm not. The owner of the boat will bear ultimate responsibility. All would be sued, though. I am clearly talking about decision making and who decides what on the boat. Dives are my dm's decision with the captain. DM's here are professionals and are supposed to take their share of the boat's responsibility. For me and my boat, that means that I have two heads thinking clearly. My post relates my rules. It works really well. I was relating why this wouldn't have happened here. THere is another matter. I think my way works better, though.

I think had anyone been hurt here the captain would have been held responsible too. He should have listened to the person that was on the boat to conduct the dive.

Oh the captain would have borne the biggest part on the boat, with the dm, and then even bigger, the owner of the boat.
This is why I have a team running the boat. They tend to make sure they catch it all and they provide back up and support for each other.
The problem is when you have a less than strong relationship between the captain and dm. Sometimes that captain and crew term translates into a small dictatorship. This is when things can go wonky.
 
Better catch up on your Coast Guard Regulations. As far as responsibility goes your team concept does not mean squat unless your team members are licensed by the Coast Guard. Without a license they are just passengers and under Coast Guard regs bear no responsibility for boat operations. This includes DM's and Instructors. The Captain in CA said his job was to drive the boat not count returning divers as this was the DM' s job. The State ruled that as the DM was not licensed by the Coast Guard he was just like any other passenger and the Captain bore all responsibility for the incident.The licensing requirement never comes up until an accident happens.
 
You've asked what people would have done differently, with the caveat that they consider walking the line between ideal behaviour and making a living in an imperfect world.

My thoughts:

1- Upon hearing about the negative entry, you should have added to or redone your briefing about the dive site. e.g. "Your instructor has just informed me that we are going to do a negative entry. This is unusual and unnecessary and carries some additional risk at our site. Who can tell me some of the additional risks they will be watching out for?" Given satisfactory answers, you might leave it there. With unsatisfactory answers, you could use the opportunity to provide some training, e.g. "Each person should take extra care to ensure their buddy is not overweighted. Make sure they know their correct weight and have done a dive recently in their current gear configuration, because in a negative entry situation you could be in trouble by the time you're noticing the problem". And so on. As the DM I think it is your right to give the dive group a briefing at whatever level of detail you think is required for them to dive safely with or without you. You don't have to insult the other instructor to do this either, because you can set it up as a test of the student's own knowledge, without pointing out to them that their instructor should have taught them these answers - nonetheless, an alert class will realize they are insufficiently trained.

2- When the buddy asked "Hey what happend to -----?" I frankly would have blamed him first, and then his instructor. Words like "As his buddy, you should know where he is at all times or abort your own dive to get help searching for him. YOU are responsible for your buddy and he could have died while you dove wondering what he was up to but doing nothing to fix it. Your dive buddy's life is your responsibility and your dive plan should not include diving without him. Surely your instructor agrees with me and has taught you that?"

3- I would have held a debrief at the end of the dive. I would have said something like "One of us could have easily died tonight, in a near panic situation. Let's review what happened and think about what we could do to avoid this next time." Starting with the diver in distress and working your way through the others on the boat in order from nearest to the distressed diver to furthest away, I would get a summary of the start of the dive from their perspective and what they could have done differently to save the distressed diver. As the last person to descend, you should have found the situation under control before you got there, a fact I would have stressed to all the divers. And finally, at this point, you have your chance to roast the instructor - as the next most qualified person in the water after you, he should either own up to his mistakes (including planning a negative entry for students who weren't prepared for it) or be prepared to hear whatever you have to say about what constitutes an appropriate skill level for taking a class in with negative entry and why it was pointless and risky to do so, and triggered an emergency situation needlessly.

I think my main thought is that though I agree with you that the instructor is responsible, and ultimately that had to be said, it didn't need to be said first. There were other guilty parties who also should have been shown their part in the drama, as well as the opportunity to think how they could have done better and rethink their choice of instructor.

Osric
 
Better catch up on your Coast Guard Regulations. As far as responsibility goes your team concept does not mean squat unless your team members are licensed by the Coast Guard. Without a license they are just passengers and under Coast Guard regs bear no responsibility for boat operations. This includes DM's and Instructors. The Captain in CA said his job was to drive the boat not count returning divers as this was the DM' s job. The State ruled that as the DM was not licensed by the Coast Guard he was just like any other passenger and the Captain bore all responsibility for the incident.The licensing requirement never comes up until an accident happens.
I don't have to catch up on anything. The US Coast Guard has no jurisdiction over me or my boats. I live in Kuwait. US Coast Guard response means squat to me.
Ironically, all my people have taken Admiral's Courses and skippers courses, because they are avid sailors also. It works out nicely even if I had to worry about Ca cases and Coast Guard regulations. Here, however, they look to the boat ownership.

I never tried to relate to or claim rulings there. I simply explained how things work in other places. The US is not the entire world.

In the OP's case, I feel for him. Having to DM and not having a good relationship with the captian is a very difficult position to be in. Most likely, the captain didn't even think about the problems with a negative entry. Had they had a good relationship, they would have discussed the request and nixed it at the outset. As it was, the DM ended up in a bad spot. This situation is not new and will happen again somewhere. DM's really do get the short end of the stick a lot of the time.
 
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You've asked what people would have done differently, with the caveat that they consider walking the line between ideal behaviour and making a living in an imperfect world.

My thoughts:

1- Upon hearing about the negative entry, you should have added to or redone your briefing about the dive site. e.g. "Your instructor has just informed me that we are going to do a negative entry. This is unusual and unnecessary and carries some additional risk at our site. Who can tell me some of the additional risks they will be watching out for?" Given satisfactory answers, you might leave it there. With unsatisfactory answers, you could use the opportunity to provide some training, e.g. "Each person should take extra care to ensure their buddy is not overweighted. Make sure they know their correct weight and have done a dive recently in their current gear configuration, because in a negative entry situation you could be in trouble by the time you're noticing the problem". And so on. As the DM I think it is your right to give the dive group a briefing at whatever level of detail you think is required for them to dive safely with or without you. You don't have to insult the other instructor to do this either, because you can set it up as a test of the student's own knowledge, without pointing out to them that their instructor should have taught them these answers - nonetheless, an alert class will realize they are insufficiently trained.

2- When the buddy asked "Hey what happend to -----?" I frankly would have blamed him first, and then his instructor. Words like "As his buddy, you should know where he is at all times or abort your own dive to get help searching for him. YOU are responsible for your buddy and he could have died while you dove wondering what he was up to but doing nothing to fix it. Your dive buddy's life is your responsibility and your dive plan should not include diving without him. Surely your instructor agrees with me and has taught you that?"

3- I would have held a debrief at the end of the dive. I would have said something like "One of us could have easily died tonight, in a near panic situation. Let's review what happened and think about what we could do to avoid this next time." Starting with the diver in distress and working your way through the others on the boat in order from nearest to the distressed diver to furthest away, I would get a summary of the start of the dive from their perspective and what they could have done differently to save the distressed diver. As the last person to descend, you should have found the situation under control before you got there, a fact I would have stressed to all the divers. And finally, at this point, you have your chance to roast the instructor - as the next most qualified person in the water after you, he should either own up to his mistakes (including planning a negative entry for students who weren't prepared for it) or be prepared to hear whatever you have to say about what constitutes an appropriate skill level for taking a class in with negative entry and why it was pointless and risky to do so, and triggered an emergency situation needlessly.

I think my main thought is that though I agree with you that the instructor is responsible, and ultimately that had to be said, it didn't need to be said first. There were other guilty parties who also should have been shown their part in the drama, as well as the opportunity to think how they could have done better and rethink their choice of instructor.

Osric

Nicely said.
For number three, I think the instructor should never have put them in that situation to begin with. After that, you are right, each bore his/her own weight. They did willingly, do that dive. Remember, the first thing they should know is how to call a dive they aren't prepared for. That is also hard to do when your instructor is the one setting it up.
 
You've asked what people would have done differently, with the caveat that they consider walking the line between ideal behaviour and making a living in an imperfect world.

I appreciate the gesture, though I doubt you fit that catagory with less then 30 dives.. Atleast you have taken that into account and understand the question being asked.

My thoughts:

1- Upon hearing about the negative entry, you should have added to or redone your briefing about the dive site. e.g. "Your instructor has just informed me that we are going to do a negative entry. This is unusual and unnecessary and carries some additional risk at our site. Who can tell me some of the additional risks they will be watching out for?" Given satisfactory answers, you might leave it there. With unsatisfactory answers, you could use the opportunity to provide some training, e.g. "Each person should take extra care to ensure their buddy is not overweighted. Make sure they know their correct weight and have done a dive recently in their current gear configuration, because in a negative entry situation you could be in trouble by the time you're noticing the problem". And so on. As the DM I think it is your right to give the dive group a briefing at whatever level of detail you think is required for them to dive safely with or without you. You don't have to insult the other instructor to do this either, because you can set it up as a test of the student's own knowledge, without pointing out to them that their instructor should have taught them these answers - nonetheless, an alert class will realize they are insufficiently trained.

That all sounds good on paper, yet in real life they were his students. I gave the briefing, after the captain gave a 10min heads up is when I found out what the instructor was planning on doing. I voiced my concerns to the captain, instructor and all of the students heard what I said. The response was something like we know what were doing we have been trained and the captain backed the instructor not I. There was little I could do at that point.

2- When the buddy asked "Hey what happend to -----?" I frankly would have blamed him first, and then his instructor. Words like "As his buddy, you should know where he is at all times or abort your own dive to get help searching for him. YOU are responsible for your buddy and he could have died while you dove wondering what he was up to but doing nothing to fix it. Your dive buddy's life is your responsibility and your dive plan should not include diving without him. Surely your instructor agrees with me and has taught you that?"

Well considering the outcome a disagree. I dont believe the instructor taught them that. Atleast well enough for them to actually repeat the training in real life. They were all under his spell of stupidity.

3- I would have held a debrief at the end of the dive. I would have said something like "One of us could have easily died tonight, in a near panic situation. Let's review what happened and think about what we could do to avoid this next time." Starting with the diver in distress and working your way through the others on the boat in order from nearest to the distressed diver to furthest away, I would get a summary of the start of the dive from their perspective and what they could have done differently to save the distressed diver. As the last person to descend, you should have found the situation under control before you got there, a fact I would have stressed to all the divers. And finally, at this point, you have your chance to roast the instructor - as the next most qualified person in the water after you, he should either own up to his mistakes (including planning a negative entry for students who weren't prepared for it) or be prepared to hear whatever you have to say about what constitutes an appropriate skill level for taking a class in with negative entry and why it was pointless and risky to do so, and triggered an emergency situation needlessly.

Yes I agree the aftermath got a little crazy and things did not go as well as I would have liked. Its easy for anyone to say that they would have done this or that differently when they have a clear head to think about it. Which is my conclusion, that after everything said and done, if anything I would have done differently would have been to keep a cool head to properly debrief the divers.


I think my main thought is that though I agree with you that the instructor is responsible, and ultimately that had to be said, it didn't need to be said first. There were other guilty parties who also should have been shown their part in the drama, as well as the opportunity to think how they could have done better and rethink their choice of instructor. Osric
 
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